CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 23, 2007 -> 08:34 PM) By the previous logic (ie: citing GG that were won 5 years ago as evidence to a players capabilities defensively) Jim Edmonds, Ken Griffey Jr., Shawn Green and Steve Finley are all currently above average defenders. One more thing, if Darin Erstad starts a single game at DH next season then this was a terrible signing. Funny that u have my whole post in front of you but somehow you reckon that I said previous GG's mean "current" above average defender. What I actually said or implied was that he would be a better option then Mackowiak in center since he has won 2 gold gloves at the position compared to 0 for Mac ( and I'll go out on a limb to say Mac will never win any GG's in center). Gold Glove winners have intangibles such as getting a good jump, a good read, taking good routes , hitting cutoff men, and throwing to the right base more consistently than a player like Mac. That consistency will save ballgames. Those are the little things that mean so much. You do not lose these intangibles because you have lost a few steps. But because of the lost speed I doubt he'll play much center unless the time off last year did a lot of healing. He's 32 yrs. old not 42. He's very capable of off season conditioning to strengthen his body. The Sox brass has to be pretty satisfied in his current condition to even consider signing him.

I'm not unhappy at all with this signing. He hardly played at all last year to have ankle surgery . Many are saying he's an old 32 yr. old. I think with all the time off last year his body had plenty of time for rest and recuperation. He's won 3 gold gloves in his career. 2 in center and 1 at 1st base. So for those saying he's now comparable to Mac in center and I'll ask how many GG's does Mac have in center ? He'll get more AB's combined in left, right, 1st and DH then he will in center . He still has the tools just not the speed to play much centerfield. With Pod's injury and recovery time Erstad could see a lot of action early in the season. After Pods is fully recovered Erstad will play 1st base if Paulies hip forces him to play a few less games at 1st and more at DH. He'll spell all 3 outfield positions. He's a team player with a great attitude and does what it takes to win. He does the little things well (bunt ,hit and run ,move runners over). Remember the Sox have a bevy of young outfielders (Sweeney, Owens, Terrero , even Fields ). If Erstad has a injury or proves he's not capable of the demands the Sox will put on him, they will bring up the OF in the minors who is having a good year. I'm sure whatever salary he signed for is disposable as is he if worst comes to worst.

QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Jul 5, 2006 -> 07:17 AM) Roeper is great for 2 reasons...big time Sox fan, and big time Stern fan. I'm definately picking up the book. David ? Howard ? Isaac ? Otto?

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jan 15, 2007 -> 12:46 PM) Also, what if we sign these players to market contracts and they all get injured? Now what? How's about this...when you or Cali become GMs, do whatever you want. Until then, deal with it. Root for the team they put on the field, or find another one. Whoa listen ! Argue your point. I respect your opinion on the baseball matters that are being discussed here , but you are way out of line here ! Where do u come off saying if I disagree with you or the White Sox philosophy (so far) in the offseason I should find another team to root for ? I don't have a right to disagree with management ? GM's have never made bad moves before ? I'm supposed to agree with every move they make or I should root for another team because you don't like my opinion ? Stick with arguing your side of the arguement and go play dictator somewhere else.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 02:51 PM) .245, 18 home runs, ~60 RBI. Why so low, you may ask? Well, y'all may remember how a few months ago the White Sox advised Mr. Crede to undergo back surgery. Mr. Boras advised Mr. Crede to rehab without surgery so as to avoid having a back surgery on his record when he hits FA. Mr. Crede listened to Mr. Boras instead of the team medical staff. Joe's back went out in September last year, and IIRC his average that month was under the Mendoza line. I think he made the wrong choice in ignoring the team's advice and following Boras's advice, and by the middle of the season, we will start to see that. Ouch ! You sound as negative as I have been in my posts lately. Let's hope Joe 's back cooperates and everything else falls into place to make 2007 another year to remember for the team.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 09:10 PM) Cali, I did not mean to get personal with you,and that was not my intent. From the little I have seen you post, you seem to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the Sox. Just thought I would post that before I read your whole post. IMO, you're going too far. To call the Sox the Flordia Marlins is a bit of a stretch, and that's being nice. What some Sox fans forget is we will still have a 100 million dollar payroll going into 2007. Actually calling us the Florida Marlins should be construed as a compliment. If we completely tear the team down and win another World Series in 5 years that means Kenny's plan of action this year and the years to follow (if his philosophy doesn't change again) will have come to fruition. They have 2 World Series victory's in their short time as a franchise do they not ?

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 08:51 PM) Just keep in mind too, that just because Kenny speaks negatively, that doesn't mean some or all of those players won't be kept. They may or may not be. But what he says in the press is all part of the poker game. When all is said and done, on April 1, I'd be really surprised if this team wasn't in a better position to win than they were when the 2006 season ended. I have kept that in mind which is why I have hope they can resign JD. But with the kind of money Zito got and the Scott Boras factor regarding JC I'd be hard pressed to think they will get resigned. I've got my fingers crossed that Kenny's got one more major move up his sleeve that will bring some ML ready talent that will hold off the rebuilding process for the coming year. As it stands right now we have a few too many holes and inpending free agents to think next year is anything but the start of the "we'll be in another World Series in 5 years when some of these players we traded for pan out if we're really lucky " mode.

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 07:18 PM) A market inefficiency. Quality to all-star major leaguers who could be had at a very good price. The free agent market was way undervaluing these players. This is not the case right now. A career .300 hitting lefty catcher for $2.5 million. Maybe you could get him for 3 times that right now. More the type of prices we got JD, AJ, Gooch, etc, now you could not get players far inferior to them for anywhere near those prices. No. It's the opposite of that. It's a regular face in philosophy. Exploiting market inefficiencies. The market is rediculously overpaying for free agents in general and pitching in particular. I have given Kenny every credit in the world for his ability to put the World Championship team together. Evrything fell into place very nicely. Many players had quality years or just did what they were capable of doing as they had proven they could do in the past. We gave up major league talent for major league talent and pulled the rabbit out of the hat after reaching into it every year for 88 years and coming up empty. I dont pretend to imagine I have more knowledge of how to put together a world champ than guys who get paid to do it for a living. But I do recognize a rebuilding when I see it and will not pretend it is anything but that because of blind allegiance to the franchise.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 06:05 PM) Trading away devolved Major League talent for high potential minor leaguers is always going to be a risk. There is no way around that. However your point doesn't really make too much sense. What are you implying? That since we don't know for sure what the return of Crede or Mark would be, we shouldn't trade them, and re-sign them for whatever it costs? What are you suggesting? I'm suggesting a balance. Everything Kenny is quoted as saying in regards to signing Buerhle , Crede and Dye is negative. If the market has changed that much how do ever manage to keep anyone once they become players who are worth big money. How do you attract big names to Chicago ? Go read the "how I became a Sox fan" thread and see how many people , in the limited number of responses said they are Sox fans because of Frank Thomas. Big time players attract fans. Do not go telling me my response doesn't make sense . That is personal . I can argue my point as can you without implying my train of thought is convoluted. I realize the course the Sox are taking and can argue pro or con on the point. I know its not the GM's job to make the fans happy per se but that certainly is a consideration. The happier the fans are the more they come to games. The more they come to games the more money they can put into the team. But oh no now the market has changed and attendance means nothing. If I wanted to track down quotes by Williams and Reinsdorf I'm sure I could about once the fans get their butts in the seats we can spend more money. I am truly amazed winning a world series once in 88 years and everyone forgets decades of White Sox incompetence. If baseball historians had to pick one team and call it the laughingstock of baseball it would be the Sox. I can see both sides of the argument very clearly and can understand givng Kenny the benefit of the doubt because of market conditions. However baseball and White Sox history tells me that our window of opportunity is officially closed and the rebuilding has begun. We are now the Florida Marlins after their 1st world series victory. Lets just hope the course of action pays dividends as soon as theirs did and doesnt take another 88 years.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 05:35 PM) It's all about cycles. The only way you can keep trading prospects and making splashes in the FA market is to have an enormous payroll. If you can't do that, then you can't keep using the same formula. Doing that will only work for so long. Kenny built the team for a 2004-2007 run. That was/is the window. Every team has a window. If you don't prepare for the future, it will close very quickly. For me, the goal of Williams off-season has been to keep the 2007 club competitive, but also try his best to secure the future success of the Sox. It's a very tricky thing to do, and I think he has done a pretty good job. I'm still not that happy with the return from Philly, but I trust the Sox judgment. And If Kenny kept all the big names to keep the fans happy, we would either have a 200 million dollar payroll by keeping Garcia-Buehrle-Dye, or they would all leave together, and because we didn't make trades to acquire players to fill their holes, we are looking at a 60-70 win season in 2008 and beyond. A very tricky thing indeed ! We've still got a lot of talent but you admitted you didnt like the return in the Garcia trade, so lets say our return on Crede ,Buerhle and Dye or whoever else is traded or becomes a free agent is just as negligible and the pitchers don't develope like we all hope they do. Then we're still looking at your 60-70 win season in 2008 and beyond.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 04:32 PM) Trading Carlos Lee allowed us to sign most of those guys as we dumped a lot of salary with that trade. True but again we signed good players who for one reason or another weren't worth as much as they could have been. So along with the signings of JD, AJ, Tadahito and El Duque we got Pods and Vizcaino in the trade, all major league talents furthure proving my point of Kenny's dislike for prospects. So all of a sudden putting so much stock in prospects is an about face in philosophy that has shocked and dismayed many fans.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 08:52 AM) Fiscal responsibility led to the 2005 championship. Explain it to me a little more clearly. Are you referring to letting Magglio go? If so Magglio was injured . It wasn't as much fiscal responsibilty as it was common sense. We signed Dye , AJ, Tadahito, and EL Duque all veterans who'd proven they were good players but had recent question marks. Dye had injuries , AJ was a troublemaker , El Duque was aging and injured and Gooch never played a day of major league baseball. I'm probably not remembering off the top of my head the other signings of other key players that led to the Championship. Right now its the exact opposite. We are not signing the players who brought us the ring. Buerhle and Crede look like goners for sure . I'm holding out some hope that the Sox can sign JD. Kenny knows this fiscal responsiblity plan is all contingent on the development and a fairly quick development of these young pitchers. Also someone explain to me how a guy who built a World Champ trading away our future because after all prospects are just prospects and look damn smart doing it ,can now put all his faith in a boatload of prospects. I am not advocating signing mediocrity for rich long term contracts but if the market has changed and 9 out of 10 GMs give pitchers more then 3 year contracts how can we compete if we don't give out contracts commensurate with the rest of baseball. Who will want to sign with us ? I am forever grateful for the World Championship but that doesnt mean that Kenny will work that magic again. When you fail to pull the rabbit out of the hat the rabbit ends up in the cellar. I hope Kenny can still work his mojo when he's completely changed his M.O.

I guess I'm too old fashioned. I long for the days that being a baseball fan meant you discussed baseball and not contracts. Why is it always the White Sox , no matter who the owner, who become the gods of fiscal responsibility ? If ever there was a time for the White Sox to NOT bring up the inflated market its now. If we can't splurge a little after having won a world series , with attendance and merchandising being at all time highs, will we be ever be able to consistently play with the big boys ? If Sox history has taught us anything its that you don't win with cheap owners. 2007 might be the last year the Sox will be in contention for a while so enjoy it while you can.

QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 07:18 AM) Trading away our best prospects in 1959 & 60 for way past prime aging players, we traded John Romano, Earl Battey, Norm Cash, and John Callison for players like Roy Sievers and Gene Freese That damn Kenny Williams ! Always trading our prospects !

Born into it. Dad and his dad both Sox fans as is my slightly older brother. Johnny Mostil (centerfielder for the Sox in the 1920's) was supposedly a distant cousin. Growing up favorite player Ken Berry (CF) . I've always worn 16 on any baseball uniform I've worn since then because of him including my newest jersey in a softball league that starts in February. I'll be playing at the ripe old age of 49. My love for the game starts and ends with the White Sox.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 08:47 AM) That leaves us with no backup in CF, which is a situation I just can't imagine KW putting this team in again, given that I think having Mack in CF last year cost us a playoff berth. And besides, Ozzie uses his bullpen the least in baseball anyway, and that includes 2005 when El Duque kept falling apart in the 5th starter slot. Ozzie lives and dies by his starting rotation, which it's a safe bet he'll do again this year. Do u really think the Sox are loading up with all these power arms so Ozzie can ride his starters again ? I'm not saying I disagree with you but I think you'll see Ozzie dipping into the bullpen a bit more than he did the last few years unless the starters kick ass and the bullpen sucks.

5 time All-star. 3 times top 3 in MVP voting. 5 time top 10 in MVP voting. In strike season became 1st major leaguer ever to hit 50 HR's and 50 doubles. In 2nd season with the Sox he hit .328, 49 HR's, 48 doubles , 152 RBI's, 399 total bases in what was arguably one of the best seasons ever by a White Sox. Everything you mentioned was done in only 12 seasons before an degenerative arthritic hip forced him to retire.

QUOTE(StatManDu @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 09:17 AM) Thanks for checking in. I didn't include every former Sox player -- just the ones who I thought were significant, memorable or had a legitimate chance at the Hall. It was a subjective list. Belle received 7.7 percent of the vote Tuesday -- his first time -- and gets to say on because he received at least 5 percent. For some reason I really liked Albert Belle. I mean the press hated him. He was surly to the point of beligerence. He got caught with a corked bat . Yet he really seemed to play hard and he put up monster numbers the few years he was with the Sox. I think I just liked him because everyone else disliked him. He played with an attitude. He reminds me of AJ in that way only to a higher degree, where he crossed the line from being a mere pest to having his sanity questioned. His career was shortened by injuries and I haven't checked his lifetime stats but I think he deserved more votes then he got. It wouldn't be the first time the press held a grudge.

Just noticed that you left Albert Belle off the Hall of Fame first ballot list.

Thanks , always do.

I predict a scandal involving saki and geishas. Konishiwa and sayonara.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 7, 2007 -> 08:05 PM) More often then not, the first time you have sex, you suck; the more you do it, the better you get at it. But improvement doesn't equal quality, it just means you're better than bad. Whoop-dee-s***. In this instance, Brian's still inexperienced, but he's atleast lost his virginity. Pretty simple, really. All 3E8 was trying to say was that it was essentially impossible for him not to improve, and that his improvement doesn't mean he's good or that he's going to be good next year. To expect a .270 average due to a .257 second half average is a bit too optimistic. Though, on the other hand, it's not too unreasonable to figure that he very well could put up a .270 average. It's just not bloody likely. Hitting a baseball isnt as easy as falling off the turnip truck which u seem to have done a few times. Just because u hit .200 doesnt mean u automatically will improve. If that was the case then everyone who ever played baseball for more then 1/2 a season and sucked would magically become a .250 hitter just like BA did. I'm giving credit where its due. He improved and he's likely to keep improving till we see what his ceiling is.

When these teams wearing the clown suits (ahem Cubs) realize they spent all that money for nothing they will all want to do what Williams did. But we got a years jump on them. I just hope for Kenny's sake and more importantly for the franchises' sake that at least one of those guys becomes a big success and 1 other becomes a moderate success or we're looking at becoming the KC Royals.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 11:39 PM) Lets take a look around the Sox very own division. Twins-Nathan and Rincon. You seem to want "proven commodities" and since your not including guys like Thornton and such, I see no reason to include guys like Reyes or even Crain. Tigers-The immortal Todd Jones and Jose Mesa. Zumaya and Rodney are far from "proven" Tribe-Foulke,Hernandez,and Borowski have all proven things. Doesn't mean they are good things.... Royals-Ha Aside from a team like the Halos, who really has all these "proven commodities" in their bullpens?? I didnt say u had to like any other bullpens did I ? My idea of a proven commodity is any pitcher with a minimum of 2 yrs of decent results though I know Jenks doesnt fit that category I give him extra credit for the postseason results. I'm just saying why pick the bullpen as the one part of the team to feel good about when we have a pretty good hitting team. Its a bunch of young power arms struggling to find a level of consistency in the bigs. If Jenks ,MacD , Thornton and just one other guy has a good season it will be a good bullpen. But thats depending on no regressions ( injuries or pitching wise) from the first 3 I mentioned. By the way I always feel good about the Sox as a whole in the offseason its just when I really start to break things down when u realize what a crapshoot it is .

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 10:46 PM) If there is one part of the team I feel very good about, it's the bullpen. What makes u feel good about it ? Jenks and MacD are the only 2 proven commodities and one has a history of injuries and the other one has a screw in his elbow.