CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 06:05 PM) Trading away devolved Major League talent for high potential minor leaguers is always going to be a risk. There is no way around that. However your point doesn't really make too much sense. What are you implying? That since we don't know for sure what the return of Crede or Mark would be, we shouldn't trade them, and re-sign them for whatever it costs? What are you suggesting? I'm suggesting a balance. Everything Kenny is quoted as saying in regards to signing Buerhle , Crede and Dye is negative. If the market has changed that much how do ever manage to keep anyone once they become players who are worth big money. How do you attract big names to Chicago ? Go read the "how I became a Sox fan" thread and see how many people , in the limited number of responses said they are Sox fans because of Frank Thomas. Big time players attract fans. Do not go telling me my response doesn't make sense . That is personal . I can argue my point as can you without implying my train of thought is convoluted. I realize the course the Sox are taking and can argue pro or con on the point. I know its not the GM's job to make the fans happy per se but that certainly is a consideration. The happier the fans are the more they come to games. The more they come to games the more money they can put into the team. But oh no now the market has changed and attendance means nothing. If I wanted to track down quotes by Williams and Reinsdorf I'm sure I could about once the fans get their butts in the seats we can spend more money. I am truly amazed winning a world series once in 88 years and everyone forgets decades of White Sox incompetence. If baseball historians had to pick one team and call it the laughingstock of baseball it would be the Sox. I can see both sides of the argument very clearly and can understand givng Kenny the benefit of the doubt because of market conditions. However baseball and White Sox history tells me that our window of opportunity is officially closed and the rebuilding has begun. We are now the Florida Marlins after their 1st world series victory. Lets just hope the course of action pays dividends as soon as theirs did and doesnt take another 88 years.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 05:35 PM) It's all about cycles. The only way you can keep trading prospects and making splashes in the FA market is to have an enormous payroll. If you can't do that, then you can't keep using the same formula. Doing that will only work for so long. Kenny built the team for a 2004-2007 run. That was/is the window. Every team has a window. If you don't prepare for the future, it will close very quickly. For me, the goal of Williams off-season has been to keep the 2007 club competitive, but also try his best to secure the future success of the Sox. It's a very tricky thing to do, and I think he has done a pretty good job. I'm still not that happy with the return from Philly, but I trust the Sox judgment. And If Kenny kept all the big names to keep the fans happy, we would either have a 200 million dollar payroll by keeping Garcia-Buehrle-Dye, or they would all leave together, and because we didn't make trades to acquire players to fill their holes, we are looking at a 60-70 win season in 2008 and beyond. A very tricky thing indeed ! We've still got a lot of talent but you admitted you didnt like the return in the Garcia trade, so lets say our return on Crede ,Buerhle and Dye or whoever else is traded or becomes a free agent is just as negligible and the pitchers don't develope like we all hope they do. Then we're still looking at your 60-70 win season in 2008 and beyond.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 04:32 PM) Trading Carlos Lee allowed us to sign most of those guys as we dumped a lot of salary with that trade. True but again we signed good players who for one reason or another weren't worth as much as they could have been. So along with the signings of JD, AJ, Tadahito and El Duque we got Pods and Vizcaino in the trade, all major league talents furthure proving my point of Kenny's dislike for prospects. So all of a sudden putting so much stock in prospects is an about face in philosophy that has shocked and dismayed many fans.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 08:52 AM) Fiscal responsibility led to the 2005 championship. Explain it to me a little more clearly. Are you referring to letting Magglio go? If so Magglio was injured . It wasn't as much fiscal responsibilty as it was common sense. We signed Dye , AJ, Tadahito, and EL Duque all veterans who'd proven they were good players but had recent question marks. Dye had injuries , AJ was a troublemaker , El Duque was aging and injured and Gooch never played a day of major league baseball. I'm probably not remembering off the top of my head the other signings of other key players that led to the Championship. Right now its the exact opposite. We are not signing the players who brought us the ring. Buerhle and Crede look like goners for sure . I'm holding out some hope that the Sox can sign JD. Kenny knows this fiscal responsiblity plan is all contingent on the development and a fairly quick development of these young pitchers. Also someone explain to me how a guy who built a World Champ trading away our future because after all prospects are just prospects and look damn smart doing it ,can now put all his faith in a boatload of prospects. I am not advocating signing mediocrity for rich long term contracts but if the market has changed and 9 out of 10 GMs give pitchers more then 3 year contracts how can we compete if we don't give out contracts commensurate with the rest of baseball. Who will want to sign with us ? I am forever grateful for the World Championship but that doesnt mean that Kenny will work that magic again. When you fail to pull the rabbit out of the hat the rabbit ends up in the cellar. I hope Kenny can still work his mojo when he's completely changed his M.O.

I guess I'm too old fashioned. I long for the days that being a baseball fan meant you discussed baseball and not contracts. Why is it always the White Sox , no matter who the owner, who become the gods of fiscal responsibility ? If ever there was a time for the White Sox to NOT bring up the inflated market its now. If we can't splurge a little after having won a world series , with attendance and merchandising being at all time highs, will we be ever be able to consistently play with the big boys ? If Sox history has taught us anything its that you don't win with cheap owners. 2007 might be the last year the Sox will be in contention for a while so enjoy it while you can.

QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 07:18 AM) Trading away our best prospects in 1959 & 60 for way past prime aging players, we traded John Romano, Earl Battey, Norm Cash, and John Callison for players like Roy Sievers and Gene Freese That damn Kenny Williams ! Always trading our prospects !

Born into it. Dad and his dad both Sox fans as is my slightly older brother. Johnny Mostil (centerfielder for the Sox in the 1920's) was supposedly a distant cousin. Growing up favorite player Ken Berry (CF) . I've always worn 16 on any baseball uniform I've worn since then because of him including my newest jersey in a softball league that starts in February. I'll be playing at the ripe old age of 49. My love for the game starts and ends with the White Sox.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 08:47 AM) That leaves us with no backup in CF, which is a situation I just can't imagine KW putting this team in again, given that I think having Mack in CF last year cost us a playoff berth. And besides, Ozzie uses his bullpen the least in baseball anyway, and that includes 2005 when El Duque kept falling apart in the 5th starter slot. Ozzie lives and dies by his starting rotation, which it's a safe bet he'll do again this year. Do u really think the Sox are loading up with all these power arms so Ozzie can ride his starters again ? I'm not saying I disagree with you but I think you'll see Ozzie dipping into the bullpen a bit more than he did the last few years unless the starters kick ass and the bullpen sucks.

5 time All-star. 3 times top 3 in MVP voting. 5 time top 10 in MVP voting. In strike season became 1st major leaguer ever to hit 50 HR's and 50 doubles. In 2nd season with the Sox he hit .328, 49 HR's, 48 doubles , 152 RBI's, 399 total bases in what was arguably one of the best seasons ever by a White Sox. Everything you mentioned was done in only 12 seasons before an degenerative arthritic hip forced him to retire.

QUOTE(StatManDu @ Jan 10, 2007 -> 09:17 AM) Thanks for checking in. I didn't include every former Sox player -- just the ones who I thought were significant, memorable or had a legitimate chance at the Hall. It was a subjective list. Belle received 7.7 percent of the vote Tuesday -- his first time -- and gets to say on because he received at least 5 percent. For some reason I really liked Albert Belle. I mean the press hated him. He was surly to the point of beligerence. He got caught with a corked bat . Yet he really seemed to play hard and he put up monster numbers the few years he was with the Sox. I think I just liked him because everyone else disliked him. He played with an attitude. He reminds me of AJ in that way only to a higher degree, where he crossed the line from being a mere pest to having his sanity questioned. His career was shortened by injuries and I haven't checked his lifetime stats but I think he deserved more votes then he got. It wouldn't be the first time the press held a grudge.

Just noticed that you left Albert Belle off the Hall of Fame first ballot list.

Thanks , always do.

I predict a scandal involving saki and geishas. Konishiwa and sayonara.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 7, 2007 -> 08:05 PM) More often then not, the first time you have sex, you suck; the more you do it, the better you get at it. But improvement doesn't equal quality, it just means you're better than bad. Whoop-dee-s***. In this instance, Brian's still inexperienced, but he's atleast lost his virginity. Pretty simple, really. All 3E8 was trying to say was that it was essentially impossible for him not to improve, and that his improvement doesn't mean he's good or that he's going to be good next year. To expect a .270 average due to a .257 second half average is a bit too optimistic. Though, on the other hand, it's not too unreasonable to figure that he very well could put up a .270 average. It's just not bloody likely. Hitting a baseball isnt as easy as falling off the turnip truck which u seem to have done a few times. Just because u hit .200 doesnt mean u automatically will improve. If that was the case then everyone who ever played baseball for more then 1/2 a season and sucked would magically become a .250 hitter just like BA did. I'm giving credit where its due. He improved and he's likely to keep improving till we see what his ceiling is.

When these teams wearing the clown suits (ahem Cubs) realize they spent all that money for nothing they will all want to do what Williams did. But we got a years jump on them. I just hope for Kenny's sake and more importantly for the franchises' sake that at least one of those guys becomes a big success and 1 other becomes a moderate success or we're looking at becoming the KC Royals.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 11:39 PM) Lets take a look around the Sox very own division. Twins-Nathan and Rincon. You seem to want "proven commodities" and since your not including guys like Thornton and such, I see no reason to include guys like Reyes or even Crain. Tigers-The immortal Todd Jones and Jose Mesa. Zumaya and Rodney are far from "proven" Tribe-Foulke,Hernandez,and Borowski have all proven things. Doesn't mean they are good things.... Royals-Ha Aside from a team like the Halos, who really has all these "proven commodities" in their bullpens?? I didnt say u had to like any other bullpens did I ? My idea of a proven commodity is any pitcher with a minimum of 2 yrs of decent results though I know Jenks doesnt fit that category I give him extra credit for the postseason results. I'm just saying why pick the bullpen as the one part of the team to feel good about when we have a pretty good hitting team. Its a bunch of young power arms struggling to find a level of consistency in the bigs. If Jenks ,MacD , Thornton and just one other guy has a good season it will be a good bullpen. But thats depending on no regressions ( injuries or pitching wise) from the first 3 I mentioned. By the way I always feel good about the Sox as a whole in the offseason its just when I really start to break things down when u realize what a crapshoot it is .

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 9, 2007 -> 10:46 PM) If there is one part of the team I feel very good about, it's the bullpen. What makes u feel good about it ? Jenks and MacD are the only 2 proven commodities and one has a history of injuries and the other one has a screw in his elbow.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 7, 2007 -> 06:05 PM) Personally, I think it's a lot higher than that too...but hey, that's why they play the games. I'd be willing to make a creative wager if you're a gambling man just to make it interesting. I'll give u 2-1 odds neither one (BMac or Floyd) wins 15 in 2007 and you give me 2-1 that they won't win 15 games combined. All we have to do is figure out the stakes.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 7, 2007 -> 05:36 PM) Considering the offenses that both of them could have behind them, I wouldn't rule out either of them having 15 wins. May not happen, but it's a lot higher than the needle in a haystack. Ok Balta u convinced me I was being a little bit stingy there. Lets upgrade it from a needle to a 16 penny nail in a haystack. Thats quite a bit larger but still damn hard to find.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Jan 7, 2007 -> 10:15 AM) This is a common misconception around here. He improved in the second half, but his offensive numbers were still disappointing in that period. It's hard not to improve upon a 180 AB stint where you do not hit .200. BA was striking out less after the All-Star break, but breaking pitches low and away were a big problem for him and most teams knew to pitch him this way. However, most of us realize that it's pretty hard to develop as a rookie with sporadic playing time and bad matchups. So optimism definitely still remains with BA, especially because of his great defense in a very important defensive position. Maybe you think its a common misconception but BA did show plenty of improvement the second half. Here are some of his splits. Batting Avg. by month March/April .161 May .167 June .196 July .313 August .296 Sept./Oct. .200 Before the All-Star break .192 After the All-Star break .257 He had approx. the same number of AB's before and after the AS break. Judging by theses stats ( and I know things don't always go the way we want) I'd have to say BA is capable of hitting .250-.260 over the course of a season. That's not unrealistic expectations.

QUOTE(Damen @ Jan 7, 2007 -> 10:03 AM) I figured McCarthy to have around a 4.50-4.75 ERA and get 12-15 wins. You'd be out of your mind to suggest Floyd will get anywhere near that. Why should we lose a guy whom we are fairly certain will get solid fifth starter numbers just so Gavin Floyd can lose us games to "work out his kinks"? I'll suggest you'd be out of your mind to think BMac is good for 15 wins in his 1st full year as a starter, but i will say his chances of doing it are better than Floyds. One has a snowballs chance in hell and the other one finding a needle in a haystack.

BUTTER !

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 09:31 PM) This is wierd. We still have a solid ML team, but we also have a boatload of pitching prospects. This is Flash's ultimate off-season. Danks Masset Gonzalez Floyd Broadway Phillips Wow. Don't forget our knuckleballer !

QUOTE(Drew @ Dec 8, 2006 -> 09:15 PM) I was there for his four-outs-from perfect game. Easy to admire, easy to hate on, but there was no '05 without Sweaty Freddy. And I was literally right there with u . I love the fact that Freddie added the splitfinger and seemed to master it pretty quickly. I wanted him to stay just to see if his fastball came back and even if it didnt to see how he would pitch with the splitty. If Philly has a good season I expect 16-20 wins from Freddie. I still content that any one of our starters are capable of being the ace of a lot of staffs. Thanks for being a major part of the World Series victory and memories that will last a lifetime( with the help of DVD's).

QUOTE(BobDylan @ Dec 3, 2006 -> 01:53 PM) The scenario you've built gives the Sox 3 lead off hitters--one of which is awful (Podsednik), one which couldn't carry Joe Crede's jock at 3B (Figgins), and then one that is above and beyond the best player of the three (Crawford) but you want to bat him 2nd? A team can have overkill speed, you know. (RE: Minnestoa Twins) Plus, you mix and match Crede/Figgins hitting numbers, but what good does that do anyone? Figgins is a top of the order hitter, Crede is a power hitter. It's Figgin's job to get on base, thus his OBP needs to be high...Crede is at the bottom of the Sox power threat, therefore his OBP is pretty much moot. If the Sox can land anyone better than Podsednik that fits ANYWHERE on the field, I promise you that Scotty Pods will be packing his bags. (Though I can't prove that statement.) Plus, if the Sox trade Crede for Figgins among others, I really don't see why you'd go after Crawford...especially at the expense of McCarthy. (Besides, if they got Santana in a deal for Figgins, they'd be in a pretty position again with 6 starters and for the future.) Iguchi is a pretty solid #2 hitter with some pop (and typically a #2 hitter has some pop, nothing which Crawford or Figgins will give you) so why would you take him out of that spot? ...And if you look back to 2005, the only "automatic" base stealer the team had was Podsednik. I have no problem with adding more power into the line-up (Manny), just as well as I have no problems adding more speed. But in every line-up, there are spots for speed and there are spots for power. Right now the Sox lack a guy at the top (not at #2) and guys down in the order. Add a Figgins, the top is filled, no more speed is needed. Add a Manny, and you earn back all the power lost with Crede, and then some. Carl Crawford has no pop ?? He hit 18 HR's last year. Is 25 or 26 and has his best power years ahead of him. . As far as I'm concerned he's a 50 steals 30 homer guy very soon. People talk about him when they talk about a 3000 hit potential guy. These are reasons why Tampa Bay wants a kings ransom for the guy. Any team that can pry him away from TB will be extremely pleased. He's a true 5 tool player . Hit for average and power, speed , great fielder and a damn good arm. I know good young pitchers are at a premium now but right now McCarthy is still just a prospect because he has never pitched a full season in the majors as a starter. If you have a chance to get a Carl Crawford you go for it. He won't come cheap but he'll be cheaper now than at any point in his future.