CaliSoxFanViaSWside

well sure is you think 3.5 fWar is equally sucking to a -1.1 fWar. I don't care how far you go back or go into the future Leury could never do that. He'll be out of baseball when he's 34.

This all makes sense and I agree wholeheartedly with most of it. However depth pieces usually cost more than a $1M contract at least on good teams who are serious about contending. 4th OF is definitely the biggest priority but also if you don't want Leury , Romy , Hamilton or Reyes at 2b or in the OF, then depth will cost you. You can trade for Kemp I suppose , but then again you're going to have people equating him with Leury without the versatility of being bad at all positions. I didn't suggest the Kemp idea but I agreed with it because there are aspects of his game that are more of a sure thing . But that poster didn't start a thread for it to be scrutinized by the Leury's Lovers or Andrus Doubters ,however you wish to categorize them. Just like with Duvall the highest bidder will get them. I am doubtful Andrus is around to receive a generous Sox offer of $1M and I am also doubtful that Sox DFA Leury . My case for Andrus is more about depth then it is power , defense , stolen bases or a savvy veteran who does the little things and plays smart baseball. No matter how you slice it he had a very good year and he will probably get paid for it. How much he gets is unknown but I would imagine somewhere around what Harrison got last year from and Harrison wasn't coming off a 3.5 fWar season with 17 HR's. However unlikely he is to repeat that performance , it is the most recent sample we have. Leury's most recent sample was -1.1 fWar. People whined about the McCann signing too but he stuck around for a 2nd year in which he did well too. They are always going to whine about guys who appear to be who we thought they are. Most of the time they are right except for the recent string of good luck with McCann, Rodon , Cueto and Andrus. McCann turned back into a pumpkin once he left the Sox. Rodon turned into one of the best pitchers in baseball for 2 years. It remains to be seen how Cueto and Andrus do for another year. Just like with Rodon they would rather thank them for their service for the year and send them on their way with the righteousness of the odds being stacked against them due to injury concerns or the ravages of time and the most recent performance overshadowed by previous performances.

LOl so now you are afraid to speak because I used your arguments against you. 2022 Leury Garcia negative 1.1 fWar as a substitute. Elvis Andrus as a starter 3.5 fWar and + 4.6 more than Leury in 2022 ! 4.6 dude ! But hey keep carrying for Garcia ,one of the worst players and lowest Baseball IQ's in baseball in 2022, to get another 400+ AB's on the 2023 Sox. It's a stupid argument to try to eliminate Andrus good starts with the Sox. He played a whole season and streaks are a part of that. He had a great season and did extremely well in all facets of the game for the Sox. LOL imagine someone carrying water for Leury Garcia and people saying "attaboy SS2K5 show him how much Garcia is equal to the guy who had 4.6 more fWar than Garcia did last year."

There is some advantage beyond playing him a full season. Sosa could be on fire in AAA and if Andrus regresses to the mean. Sosa would then likely be called up to start. I don't expect Romy to put up numbers like Sosa will in AAA . Then Andrus backs up Tim which is surely a better option than Leury at SS. Or Tim again gets injured and Andrus at SS and Sosa at 2nd base. Surely any scenario not involving Leury is much better. Popeye hasn't even started AAA yet but did well in the 2nd half of the season at AA. But he needs even more seasoning than Sosa. Please keep in mind that we are trying to field the best team possible in 2023 within some constraints of management. . It's not a given the Sox will even entertain the notion of signing both Duvall and Andrus let alone Duvall who is needed even more. Much like the Sox finally got around to taking Eloy, Vaughn and Sheets out of the OF , they need to get around to not putting Leury, Payton , Hamilton , Reyes or Popeye in pivotal roles in 2023.

But he already said he would play 2nd base so that would go for any team that signed him. I'm sure he'd prefer SS but the friendly confines of The GRate seemed to suit him well.

Ok 43 games is a small sample size so lets eliminate 1.7 fWar from Andrus 2022, it would also eliminate his fWar his 2020 29 game -.3 . Let's also eliminate Leury's 2020 16 game .5 fWar in 2020. SO we eliminate both Leurys and Andrus 2020 due to being less than 43 game sample sizes for both. 2022 Andrus with the A's 1.8 fWar. Leury -1.1 fWar that's plus 2.9 fWar for Elvis 2021 Andrus 1.6 fWar , Leury 1.8 +.2 for Leury. 2019 ANdrus 1.9 fWar, Leury 1.7 . +.2 Andrus. 2018 Andrus 1.2fWar , Leury .7 +.5 Andrus 2017 ANdrus 4.4 fWar, Leury 1.0 +3.4 Andrus. Winner the last 5 years of non small sample size Elvis Andrus by 6.9 fWar You might not think this was fair but I was just going by your definition of small sample sizes which eliminated 2020 for both and so I had to add 2017 to replace 2020 in order to see if your claim that his last 5 years were on par with Garcia. But you also said "even with the hot streak" his last 5 years are on par with Garcia so let's eliminate 2017 and include all of 2022. 2022 is a fWar advantage now of 4.6 for Andrus over Garcia and 2020 .8 advantage for Garcia . So either way you slice it, With small samples included Andrus has 7.7 fWar more than Gracia and eliminating the small samples of 2020 and Andrus 43 game sample in 2022 it's 6.9 more fWar for Andrus. Take your pick 7.7 more fWar "even with the small sample size" as you said or 6.9 more fWar without small sample sizes. I'd hardly call that on par. @Squirmin' for YerminIf he's Leury minus the defensive flexibility. I could say Andrus is a better hitter and better defensive infielder, better base runner despite his lack of speed compared to Leury. I mean, come on Leury might be out of baseball when he's 34 which is when Andrus had a 4.6 f War advantage over Leury's age 31 season. Leury could be DFA'd or traded and Duvall and Andrus both signed, or Kemp or, Romy and Sosa. I don't care, but I thought we were all sick of the dependence on Leury Garcia to play a crucial role . But if you are really trying to say Leury Garcia is more valuable to the 2023 Sox than Andrus would be that's (to use your words) stupid. We still need a better replacement CF than Leury and a better IFer also.

It's a dead period here at Soxtalk as we try to figure out if the Sox have any more money , trade or stand pat from here on . We know Adam Duvall is an ideal candidate for 4th OF mainly because of his defense and power. We also know that for the Sox to do well this season that they need more power than last year. The problem with that is the Sox need career HR years from guys like Robert, Eloy and Vaughn who are now their main HR threats. 2 of those 3 have problems staying on the field. It's incumbent on the Sox to increase power without sacrificing defense at the other positions and from the bench guys. Colas could provide a good amount of power but as much as he is already a personal favorite of mine I cannot deny that he'll have to be very good almost from the beginning to provide as much power as perhaps Vaughn will. It would be very helpful but it's still expecting a lot . Plus if he hit's 15 he's replacing Sheets power production. Moncada and Grandal could also provide some power but they are a mystery to most of us when it comes to what they'll provide offensively . Benintendi hit 5 last year and is capable of perhaps 15 but will he ? The same can be said of Anderson. 2nd base is also a mystery both offensively and defensively plus there is not much available can can power both defense and offense. Sosa is still very young and has great promise.Romy Gonzalez is 26 and wasn't even a great Minor League player. Expecting good results from him is one of the longest shots the team might take if he's the opening day 2nd baseman. Now I know all the arguments against Elvis Andrus. Expecting him to repeat what he did last year in his 43 game sample last year is also expecting a little bit too much when he'll turn 35 August 26th. He's been going downhill too long. We've heard Grandal says the Sox lost a lot when they lost Anderson but did they ? Let's take a look at what Andrus did in those 43 games with the Sox and also the A's. The Sox tried Leury and Sosa before Andrus came to them. According to fWar Andrus had a very good 3.5 . I can't determine how much of that came with the Sox and how much with the A's but it seems pretty even. He did have just about twice as many PA with TX than with the Sox. For a guy who is not that fast any more he stole 18 bases least season and was 11 for 11 with the Sox. He also played very good defense with a 4 OAA. Those things should tell you he is a smart base runner and good defensively. He also has said he would be willing to play 2nd base. He seemed to find a fountain of youth with the Sox. Slash line .271, .309, .464, .773 . 116 OPS+ 17 HR, 9 with the Sox despite half the PA's he had with TX. He actually was the Sox best 2 way player down the stretch when it seems many of the Sox players gave up. This is why we hear Andrus name come up to play 2nd base but to also provide depth at SS and even 3rd base. Remember we no longer have Abreu HR's . Sheets shouldn't play OF but we are losing his 15 HR's and just replacing them with hopefully a few more from Colas. Also losing Andrus 9 HR's. Having Andrus would also give Sosa some time to work on things at AAA in his age 23 season. Probably will also lose Jake Burger's 8 HR's since there's no room for his fielding at 3rd base nor his bat at DH. The Sox have been luckier than usual in picking up players for cheap. Rodon, McCann, Cueto and Andrus. It's always refreshing to see a new player come into our park and play well. Maybe there is something about his game that just fits our park. He certainly seemed at home with his lift and pull approach even though his GB% went up slightly and his FB% went down compared to his time in Oakland in 2022. The Sox need more power, good defense and opportunistic base running either starting at 2nd and on the bench. Is he really a worse option then Romy or Sosa at this point ? I know he costs more then them but for a very savvy veteran maybe out best chance to get 2 fWar from a guy at 2nd base is from the guy who had 3.5 fWar last year and flourished here.

I miss Alex and Ursula Snelius, our Lithuanian, $64M IL Lottery winners, HR sponsors. May they rest in Peace.

Yes Eminor nailed it. I've been super critical of the Reinsdorf regime . I temper that with optimism each spring because "hope springs eternal" and all that good stuff to prevent myself from being angry or sad about the Sox. I never felt like I was broken but rather just accepted that this is what being a Sox fan under Reindorf is. It wasn't any better under any previous owners in my life . While I am privately optimistic my posts are hyper critical because we've seen so many examples of how JR operates and we conveniently forget most of it when things are looking up. Now is an example of a temporary up time. Clevinger, Benintendi, new coaches all saying the right things. Hoping for best seasons from a lot of guys and Grifol the miracle worker all in the name of continuing to dangle the carrot but hoping our hunger will make us forget how bad they truly are again. Hell I'm still holding out hope that they do something about 4th OFer and figure out a way to find more power while not sacrificing defense. These little slap hitting types and waiting for Robert, Eloy and Vaughn's best seasons and pumping the hype on the new coaches is a huge fucking carrot if I ever saw one.

One year in the minors is really fast for some people especially without much AAA time. He got stronger and stronger as he progressed and did all that while not playing much the last couple of years. The reason I wanted him called up last year was to get a head start on this year. It was apparent that his 1st season was a spectacular success in every way advancing from A+ to AAA all in his 1st season in the states. I wanted him to have a trial run and was getting pretty sick of the OF defense. I thought it best for him to get a feel for RF at home and give him an introduction to MLB pitching. I thought it was pretty apparent with the need for LH power and better defense in the OF that he was a perfect fit for RF and the sooner he can get acclimated to MLB the better. Now if he is held down for the extra year his growing pains will be from May through July or longer instead of perhaps August and September of last year . It also would have got Robert out of the lineup and allowed him to heel.Giving him time last year would have given him a jump on this year and given the Sox some idea on his readiness. The new coaches could've studied tapes on him in MLB and developed an off season plan for him. But Colas is currently working with assistant hitting coach Mike Tosar with Romy Gonzalez in Miami so that's a good sign. Tosar was in Atlanta when the 3 aforementioned ( in previous posts) Brave's rookies did their thing. Any way here's an article about the triumvirate of Sox hitting coaches. https://soxmachine.com/2022/12/jose-castro/

I think you are hearing Duvall so much because he can play all 3 OF positions pretty well and Robert always seems to miss a lot of time. He would also be the biggest HR threat off the bench which would make him a top priority who, with extended playing, time could reach 20+ HR's. Profar has a nice bat but defensively at least last year he was primarily a LF . Didn't play CF or 2B at all while starting 147games. If the Sox didn't get Benintendi , Profar might've been in their sights. If the Sox didnt already have Leury, Profar would be fine. But he doesn't really fill the CF or 2b problems. He was pretty bad last year. He hasnt played SS or 3rd base since 2018. Since 2019 he's only played 27 games at 2nd base. We think of him as being versatile but his defense doesn't track in very many positions now. It's just not good enough. You want a Switch hitting LF /1B man that's what he's becoming.

It's worth celebrating because there's playoff revenue and our favorite team is now in contention to win a Championship however unlikely you view that. If you go back the last 11 World Series the AL Central has been in 4 of them while the East has been in 3. SO always a joke doesn't apply. Doesn't matter how many time the Yankees ousted the Twins because the Yankees didn't get to the World Series either. You can't tell the players it's not worth celebrating when they're all dancing around the clubhouse drinking champagne. They work hard for a goal like that. Plus if they do win the central a lot of things went right and maybe they are btter than we expected and the other teams got some bad luck. False hope is one thing but expecting disaster once in the playoffs depends entirely on what went right with us or wrong with the other teams during the season.

I think your underselling him He brings more than $5-6M to the table. Harrison essentially got $5.5 M ($4M +1.5M buyout) and Josh wasn't capable of 20-30 HR's like Duvall . Still can play all 3 OF positions and has maintained his speed well. Gets good jumps and has an above average arm and good accuracy. He pulls most of his HR's and doubles but I saw at 4 to RF in 2022 on his highlights. Didn't see any to straight away CF which I like since it avoids the biggest part of parks. Perfect for a power hitting PH since there's no one else to provide that. Also can PR.

Kemp is not a bad idea. 1.5 fWar last year, 11 out of 12 in SB so LH speed guy gets down the line pretty quickly and should benefit from the shift and pickoff rules. Many here like the idea of Duvall . He's not far removed from that 2021 season in which he hit 38 HR's and 113 RBI . Definitely high K guy and low OBP but as far as defense and power he's ideal unless they want the 4th OF to also be LH. He's 34 now and some have suggested he'd go to a place to get a starting job or more playing time. But I think he'd get plenty of PT here. He has to know what he is at this point of his career and a part time job that he could potentially get 400 PA's should suit him. I think it'll come down to who offers him the most money. Not sure that'll be the White Sox . He's there for the taking right now. Maybe he's hoping to get $10M a year and willing to wait but something under that should get it done quickly unless the Sox are again pretending to be financially strapped. He'd have a crucial role here.

That's 2 people that apparently @Tnetennba didn't see.

Nah I didn't have to squint. I read it play as day from a couple of posters. The question you asked was who is saying give him a shot ? NRI or minor league contract is a shot . It was about you not seeing those who said give him a shot. I don't care if he get's a shot. No idea where this guarantees him a roster spot came from. I never made a connection in my post to you about a guarantee.

Wow thanks for that .I had no idea. I thought it was a guarantee Captain Obvious ?. I was asked who is saying to give him a shot and my response was people said minor league deal or NRI which was true, which is a shot . You telling me chances are he wouldn't make he is meaningless to that exchange.

Dodgers and Yankees both have problems beyond closer. Not sure what they are going to do about them. Trade market may open up more. But I think they're going to take care of position player needs and feign like they are fine with internal options with closer for the time being. It may change. There's still 2 boring months of the off season to go. Sox will probably sit tight let all the decent relievers left get paid by other teams. Save our prospect capital . As bad as the whole TLR hiring and performance was, it's difficult to understand how much blame him and Menechino get judging by the TLR vitriol shown in the TLR invited to ST thread. Usually it's like managers can't cost you too many games or win you too many. If TLR and Menechino made so many players suck and get injured I'd truly have to question how committed the players are to winning also. Cease, Cueto, Lopez and Hendriks didn't seem to be bothered by anything the coaching staff did. Abreu hit less HR's but over all had a fine year. Vaughn did much better as a hitter. I think it's probably very rare that veteran players, which the Sox youngish core are now, would fully change anything that's worked for them en masse. I'm not buying into what amounts to "the best shape of their lives " stuff about how much dedication to preparation and sabermetrics by the new staff is going to transform everyone to their peak performances. Hahn is getting sympathy by trying to undo the whole mess of TLR with fluff about the organization is now in the best shape of it's life .

Are we reading the same thread ? NRI/Minor league deal, that's a shot to make the opening day 26 isn't it ?

I've seen the word "earn" in regards to Colas here and some people, maybe more than your "correct" call ,think it's the incorrect call. But it certainly would be the "save face" call since they didn't call him up last year.

Well Grandal is project by FGDC for 2.4 WAR in 354 PA ,115wRC+ next season while Romy is .9 w/294 PA and 91 wRC+ and Sosa 1.2 w/ 287 PA and 100wRC+. Colas is 1.6 w/ 400 PA , 116 wRC+. TIFWIW.

It's amazing to me people say give La Stella a shot but want Colas to earn his way onto the team by playing in Charlotte 1st. Old,bad, injured LH non HR hitter come on down. Young LH HR hitter who is way ahead of Sheets in RF defensively nah earn your way here and you can't play too many rookies because we're in the window !

https://www.southsidesox.com/2020/3/2/21159697/value-generated-by-white-sox-international-signings?_ga=2.11346740.1068181808.1672255323-1099104242.1672255323 Yes. If we are moving the goals posts from the OP statement about recent success because of minor leaguers to how the Sox have done from 1990 -2019 the Sox were credited with the most of their WAR in that period from Ordonez and C. Lee since their careers are done. They get a boost from Abreu who they paid $68M for. They had a period from 2005 to 2007 with Iguchi (2005), Escobar (2006) and A. Ramirez (2007) Basically you can create any parameter. We can remove the crazy money signings from all teams and then see how it shakes out. You can do it by age groups too I suppose if anyone had the time or info. You can probably divide it with current rules which wouldn't show much for most teams since those rules haven't been in place that long. Or you could even count WAR per money spent and have all kind of different positions teams would be. Since the OP asked if the Sox are currently building a better system with IFA's the answer is basically indeterminable or no since it's still too early to tell. Even Robert signing for big bucks hasn't moved the needle much since he's been injured so much but his 6.6 fWAR total would be more than some . Touting minor leaguers is one thing but who rises to MLB and actually produces any WAR is another. Carson Fulmer and Zack Collins were ranked top 75 prospects at one point so the proof will be in the future pudding.

I'll believe it when I actually see a few Dominican's playing for the Sox . MLB has been mining the DR for years. Have the Sox ever had one play for them who did anything ? Until that happens any hype is blowing smoke up our...

I don't know for sure but Ruiz and perhaps Santos have an option or 2 left. I'm not too worried about too much depth because there other are arms that could eventually be DFA'd, Carlos Pérez, Bennett Sousa, Nicholas Padilla, and Rule 5 pick Nick Avila . Any of the bottom guys could be traded also Ruiz, Diekman, Kelly etc. Still could trade any at the deadline too if things fall apart again. I know you like that idea more.