CaliSoxFanViaSWside

Ha I'll take that as a compliment. If you think that post was lengthy you should've seen everything I started writing about the Rays. I decided fuk it. JR cannot even see the benefit or hiring a lot more developmental people in scouting, coaching, or any computer science/biometrics people. We're just spinning our wheels talking about getting prospects again. I'm not confident at all that the Sox have the right people to turn high draft picks or prospects from another team into useful players.

I wouldn't count on not trading Robert for 2 years. 1 more 5+ WAR in 2024 will solidify him as a legit superstar. That would mean he had another healthy season. I'd trade him then. It doesn't matter if you think he's too good to be traded. You trade him when he is at his healthiest AND at the top of his game. There is no such thing as too good or too valuable that you could never get his value in a return. He is only one guy playing one position. He only has a certain amount of years left on his contract . If he gets hurt for the obtaining team he's useless, valueless, except for the years left that he can be productive and establish more value. After 2024 is over he'll have 3 years left. 1 Arb year and 2 club option years. With his injury history it's not wise to hang onto him for a 3rd year in a row expecting him to miss minimal games. You don't want to be too greedy expecting peak performance and peak health for that long just because you rather get 5 talented players than 4. Plus there are forces at play where you think value may be at a peak. You never know it could be at the All Star break / trade deadline 2024 with Robert putting up 3.5 WAR by then. Or Cease can be held till the trade deadline 2024 and his performance will have a bearing on the right time to trade Robert along with other market conditions. Of course this all depends on if they are pretending or legitimately think they can contend. JR may decide to stick his nose in again and screw it all up.

It went pretty well a lot longer than I thought it would. There are people on this board who tried to tell our fans that Cease's 2023 was going to be a sticking point in negotiations and they better prepare themselves for the long haul and not to get all caught up in the whole we're getting a haul stuff or you're going to be disappointed when you set your expectations too high. If these O's fan read through the whole thread they will probably see the responses were not so polite because no one wants to hear it. The Frobby guy knew when to bow out . Just like Roberts 2023 made him so good now that he's untradable. Forget about his injury history he's going to be even better now. Forget about Cease 2023, his last 3 years combined are top 10 SP pitcher in baseball numbers by WAR we' re getting a haul !! Conversely the Os guys are clutching their prospects like their GM . They are all great and going to be great MLB players. (Paraphrasing . Don't take it literally). I'm not wishing them ill will but after listening to them for so long it made me almost wish that they could truly appreciate how often those high hopes come crashing mercilessly to earth by experiencing it up close and personal. Santander's production will have to be replaced very soon. Mullins and Hays after that. They've been lucky so far that Rutchman and Henderson have become good so fast. Cowser, Mayo, Kjerstad, Basallo whoever the top 5 untouchable guys are may not fare as well. Things might have worked out a little better had the Sox held onto Macus Semien or Fernando Tatis Jr. But the Padres GM knew middle of the diamond guys at SS and CF were better bets to ask for way before it ever dawned on Hahn. Who cared anyway, he hadnt even played stateside yet and to this day the The Sox have never developed a player from the DR when DR players have been dominating baseball since Reinsdorf became owner. Hey Jerry let's trade away more International money we don't need it !! 2021 for the Sox was a mirage built upon Rodon's 1 year of success. Their 2nd half record was . 500 that year and they beat the crap out of their own weak division. Rodon wore down because the Sox abused his arm in the 1st half even though he had barely pitched the 2 previous seasons. It's like the Sox had never heard of limiting innings. Hahn's arrogance about multiple championships and talk to me after the parade BS like he had already accomplished so much in his muddied GM career was nauseating . Eloy almost tore his arm off . Robert almost tore his leg off at the hip. The TLR debacle didn't end well. 2021 ended up being the last of the 2 whole years of playoffs and JR telling us after 2022 hey we finished .500. That's not that bad ?. Then the wheels not only fell off but were completely disintegrated in 2023. COVID and the strike right in the middle of our contention window sure didn't help anything. Not only were our guys getting injured but they were getting COVID too. The Sox were hiring and firing medical personnel when they should've fired Hahn and Williams and let someone else rebuild the team they destroyed but that like so many other mistakes was led by good old Jerry Reinsdorf. Why can't we have nice things became the unofficial Sox fans motto ! Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic was the runner-up. I have a suspicion that we'll be hearing that for a bit longer.

You're not wrong and I've mentioned Flexen in the same breathe as Kopech, Fedde Soroka, Toussaint and Scholtens for a reason rather than including Eder, Nastrini etc. The youngsters are going to play in the minors as long as possible for various reasons be it innings pitched or gaining confidence. I'd say to develop but with the Sox that's not something I'm real confident about. The others guys Fedde, Soroka yes even Flexen etc are here to be part of the movable trade deadline pieces. Whoever qualifies is gone and a young guy takes their place among those auditioning in the minors. There's also a good likelihood some of those top 6 guys flop and get released and some of those young pitchers get moved into the rotation. That's why Getz continues to get guys like Flexen. He wants to keep the young guys in the minors to "develop" as long as possible where they can built value rather than get destroyed in the majors. Hence dumpster dive rotation where only Toussaint and Scholtens have control. Among Fedde, Kopech and Soroka those 3 are the 1st to go if any of them can fetch a prospect. After that among Scholtens, Toussaint and Flexen , Flexen would be 4th inline to be out the door if he can show anything. If Scholtens or Toussaint manage to be ones with decent enough numbers to be traded they would be gone too. Theoretically the more reclamation projects you have to play with the better your odds that 1 or 2 becomes tradeable. That's what I've been reduced to clinging to. It ain't pretty by any means

Yes this is true. I had mentioned that he WOULD have been in his 1st Arb. Year in 2024 but that was only if Seattle had kept him.

I do need something to be optimistic about when to comes to the s%*# show that happens to be our favorite team. Let me cling to the slim hope that Bannister and company are good at making chicken salad and Cease gets traded for a package that won't make at least half this board upset by the return. I know we are united by expecting the proverbial haul that we've seen Rosenthal and others say should be coming. But remember that if Getz lets Cease pitch into the season up until the trade deadline he needs to perform much better than last year to have any glimmer of hope . That goes double for Robert staying healthy enough to get a haul for him too. That's a whole lot of things that need to go right when you also have to consider The Reinsdorf factor.

Very true but I'm afraid Getz is going to end up letting Cease pitch for the Sox. Still a long way from that happening but the definition of getting a haul has shrunk . Other GMs are going to test Getz's resolve as long as they can on that high ask.

Don't you think that was pretty clear before they got Flexen ? Someone somewhere in the organization is also squinting on Flexen. Boston squinted on Giolito for $38M. Slightly more open eyed squint but Giolitos 2nd half was pretty damn ugly too. Lots of pitchers are being signed in the 10M+ range that you have to do a lot of squinting on. Obviously JR is not even going up to that level. Guys like Flexen is what Getz is reduced to doing. I'd rather he keeps trying than just give up.

I think my post made it pretty clear that I don't see much hope either for turning a huge pile of s%*# into enough to be traded so pointing out Flexen's negatives is preaching to the choir. I've also made it clear in many past posts that the culture is a losing culture and that's on JR and the only reason for not firing Grifol is probably also on JR mainly because he is going to be paid even if he not here, so why pay 2 managers . Even if it's possible Getz kept Grifol because of their KC connection all JR would have to say to Getz is Im not paying 2 managers and any chance Getz had of firing Grifol is gone. I think the lack of talent is self evident and hearing Getz acknowledge that doesn't change the fact that JR isn't going to pay for talent that's worth anything right now and even if he does in the near future it'll be the kind of middling $10M older vets that Hahn got that never seemed to pan out. Everything we complain about is on Reinsdorf. All I'm doing is clinging to any small sliver of hope that incrementally increases the chance of bringing in more prospects. Since Bannister was brought in and takes pride in helping pitchers find what they once had, Getz's plan has been pretty obvious given the constraints he's dealing with. Turn some short term reclamation projects into prospects and do the same thing with Moncada , Eloy Vaughn and anyone else who happens to do well this year. If by some miracle the Sox are within 5 games of 1st in the pathetic central approaching the trade deadline that will mean that some of the reclamation projects have panned out and they will be traded. That's best case scenario to perhaps gain 3 prospects from the pile of garbage off season acquisitions. Of course that can all be negated by holding onto Cease and he pitches equal to or worse than last year.

It's not like his K/9 is getting worse. Maybe his command was off and with non K pitchers that's a big deal. Get some command back and he could be back to where he was. How can you not see the potential when he's already done it ? Look I'm not blind to what's going on. I've been saying all along when posters say that the Sox will be under under 100 losses , that up to this point in the off season I don't see any significant improvement. I said they couldn't win the AZL. My outlook for the Sox is so bleak I often wonder why anyone sweats the minutiae right now, like why bother arguing with each other or Orioles fans? What will be will be. But that's what fans do. I'm jaded as hell . I don't see upside with Maldonado at his age so if he can't be flipped I really have to question his true worth in the short time he's going to be here teaching or calling games with a bunch of pitchers whose goal it is to be good enough to be flipped. A catcher can call a great game but a pitcher has to hit his spots to be at his best. My faint hope which fuels any subjective analysis is that a couple of guys can be flipped out of the pitchers that are given a shot in the rotation and BP. I haven't a clue which ones have the best chance at that and neither does anyone else. Our best guesses don't really mean much here. Plenty of players go from suck one year to good enough to trade the next year. Being under 30 ,healthy and having a recent record of success are all factors in Flexen's favor. Maybe Bannister , Katz, Maldonado and Stassi can help too. That's why they were hired , to take a lot of chicken s%*# and turn part of that big pile into chicken salad.

So if Flexen pitches 75 innings injury free and has a 4 ERA, 4 FIP, 6.5 K/9 he wouldnt be worth something, anything ? I just find it odd you and others place so little value on his 21 & 22 seasons and his age. There is some upside there. When you are talking about Kopech, Toussaint, Soroka, Flexen, Fedde and Scholtens . I think if I gave each poster the chance to name the guy who puts up the best and worst season out of those 6 as a SP 80% of the board couldn't get both guesses right. I think if we're being fair any one of them could be worth some kind of prospect or can be a disaster. Hell Giolito for his 2 years $38M could suck as much as any of those 5 nor is he guaranteed to be the best if added to that group.

I can't wait till Billy Hamilton retires. Then I'll just have to see you suggesting him as a coach rather than a player. ?

Chis Flexen 2021 Age 26 ,179.2 IP , 3.61 ERA , 3.89 FIP, 1.25 WHIP, 6.3 K/9 2022 Age 27, 137.2 IP, 3.73 ERA, 4.49 FIP, 1.329 WHIP, 6.2 K/9 2023 Age 28, 102.1 IP, 6.86 ERA, 6.22 FIP, 1.671 WHIP, 6.5 K/9 Lucas Giolito 2021, Age 26, 178.2 IP, 3.53 ERA, 3.79 FIP, 1.103 WHIP, 10.1 K/9, 11th in CY 2022 Age 27, 161.2 IP, 4.90 ERA, 4.06 FIP , 1.435 WHIP, 9.9 K/9 2023 Age 28, 184.1 IP, 4.88 ERA, 5.27 FIP, 1.313 WHIP, 10 K/9 The last 3 years of Flexen and Giolito are not that dissimilar. Obviously Lucas has a longer track record, much better K /9 and more innings. If Flexen had a combined statistical season in 2023 lets say halfway between his '21 and '22 stats he'd be looking at being a decent part of the Mariners rotation in his 1st year of Arbitration in 2024. 1 bad year for a 4th or 5th starer type after 2 years of solid production apparently made him worth a minor league contract in the eyes of many here. Yet Lucas got 2 years and $38M. Is the difference between them over the last 3 years that big of a difference to warrant the vast differences in how some of our fans view Flexen and at least 1 GM viewed Giolito ? I'm real good with this type of flyer. 29 year old starting pitcher with stats in 2 of his last 3 years that would be very acceptable on the 2024 Sox.

Well there goes @bmags86 hero.

He was your typical Sox player that failed the rebuild ,had stuff but couldn't put it all together. Extremely inconsistent but underlying stats say he has value . That's why the Braves wanted him. Do good but then fall off the map types or guys who were often injured or didnt live up to the hype. Kopech,Giolito, Anderson, Moncada,Eloy ,Madrigal, Vaughn, Rodon, Collins, Fulmer. Robert, Jr. until last year which by then was too late to matter. Cease you could've expected a worse year after his 2022 but not quite as bad. Still showed no better command, velo dipped slightly. A lot of stats tell you he has a tremendous amount of value along with his durability. Guys have talent but injuries but a lot of lack of development also.

Outside of Maldonado, Getz seem to be enamored with white Boy Scouts. Next thing you know Sox will hire a team Chaplain. I'm seeing a lot of Dayton Moore in Getz.

Pretty much everything they do is questionable but no matter how you slice it, it's a rebuild. But instead of taking the best prospects they are limiting themselves to higher floor older prospects AA/AAA to try to compete asap. They are just so innovative !

No idea what you are talking about. The Astros goal while rebuilding was to get the highest draft pick in multiple years. They did quite well at it. The Sox goal while rebuilding was the same as the Astros. They failed. I consider tanking and rebuilding in the same breath. This tank the Sox are undertaking right now is a rebuild. We're stripping the team of valuable assets in exchange for perceived valuable assets known as prospects. The success or failure depends on the many prospects to develop and be productive MLB players. To your other point culture is talked about plenty here and has been mentioned in all kinds of podcasts and written articles from any source that covers the Sox and many national outlets because that's what the FO is feeding them. But the whole time, Reinsdorf seems to escape the lions share of the blame for creating the losing culture . It was Hahn, Kenny, coaches, players. Every player playing, every scout scouting, every coach coaching all hired by the owner owning. The quantity and the quality that winning organizations do as opposed to what Reinsdorf does. That's your losing culture. Plenty of teams had asshat players and coaches. Winners call that colorful. Losers say bad culture which actually means it's the players who didn't try or did not learn, did not execute because they lacked, commitment, heart, dedication. It starts at the top not the bottom. Gravity doesn't work that way.

I love it. Old pop culture Gong show reference to the unknown comic. It's like Spielbergian Ready Player One worthy.

?

Hahn spent too much to make the Sox too good when they were supposed to be tanking so they never got the ultra high draft choices Houston did while they were tanking. Getz might be doing a better job at securing more losses when you can't even get rewarded for being good at losing any more. This is tragically hilarious. Only the White Sox could be preaching culture and have people actually falling for that new age , Disney line of BS. Are they trying to win baseball games or build future leaders of the free world ? They created that losing culture. It's the new regime throwing the old regime under the bus without somehow indicting the ring leader of that culture.

Apparently you should be asking yourself in regards to future acquisitions "What is his Culture Index Quotient" ? This is the ability to inspire your team mates by your work ethic, leadership , TWTW and buying drinks for your teammates at the hotel bar and telling them how you all pulled together to cheat your way to more wins.

If by contend you mean rising to the top of the miserable Central I suppose anything is possible.

The best way to change the culture is by winning. Nothing brings players closer than celebrating a hard fought victory . Culture does not exist for a bunch of stiffs battling for roster spots who barely spend any time together battling on the same battlefield. The Sox roster is chum and the walking dead.

That was shut long ago by all but the most paranoid of Sox fans. He was always too expensive.