shakes

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 27, 2010 -> 09:36 AM) Hell, as long as we've got a backup plan, that's a gamble I'd take. The Sox are stuck with Teahen and as of now still have Viciedo, so there are already backup plans in place. I think they need to bring him back even if it is just for a part time or bench role. He's been the most effective infield coach on the team.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 14, 2010 -> 07:43 AM) Wow. This thread has become quite engaging. I don't know if I've ever seen so many * in a thread. I'm glad I didn't post right away because it gave me time to think. At first I wanted to jump in and defend greg, and I'll still say this: He's definitely the target of many angry posts. But I cannot agree that Quentin is any better than lousy in the field. The catch, well that was awesome, but Andruw Jones could have caught that while dumping a fistful on sunflower seeds in his mouth because he would have taken the correct route to the ball. I'm exaggerating, but not by much. Watching Jones and Rios in the field on Sunday was a treat. These guys make it look so easy, especially Jones. I'm waiting for him to catch a can of corn behind his back while chatting it up with a fan. Quentin is always jumping around, and he looks uncomfortable every time a ball is hit in his direction. I've realized that I release a held breath every time he does catch the ball and it doesn't bounce off his head ala Jose Conseco. If Jones has returned to form (and there's no guarantee that is true), he's a much better choice...scratch that...he is THE choice to play right field over Quentin. TCQ is a beast at the plate, and the Sox need his bat. I like the idea of him DHing and having Jones and someone else playing the field. I don't think Jones can do it all the time,maybe not even most of the time. Quentin bat = good. Quentin glove = not good. I agree with this post. Jones should be in right field as long as he is somewhat productive at the plate. And if TCQ keeps producing at the DH spot like he has lately, they can afford the dip in Jones bat. With him in RF the Sox are fielding a very good defense and this team should be more about run prevention, as contructed. With that said, people are going a little far with how bad Carlos defense has been. I will freely admit he is a below average defender and I like him much better as a DH, but he does not hurt the team as bad as some make it out. Corner outfielders just simply don't effect the game that much, and he is not nearly Ryan Braun, Brad Hawpe, Jermaine Dye bad. You just can't take UZR as gospel, it is a very flawed metric and even very inconsistant and unreliable when talking about a half seasons worth of data. The people who created UZR even say that a full seasons UZR is inconsistant. Using 86 games of UZR data to 'prove' an outfielder is bad, isn't a strong argument. He is a below average, but capable corner outfielder.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 22, 2010 -> 02:37 PM) While I agree with you, getting a day off for Paulie and Rios with Peavy on the mound against the Nationals is one of the reasons why Peavy was brought here. He is supposed to be an ace. He is paid to be an ace. This is one of the luxuries an ace allows you. I'm happy he stepped up to the plate and hopefully the rest afforded the two sluggers will pay dividends this week. This is a great point. I think it showed a lot of confidence in Peavy and it was great to see him rise to the occasion. It was a calculated risk and it paid off. I think Ozzie should be commended for that. Konerko and Rios were overdue for a day off and looked it. It was nearly 100 degrees in D.C. this weekend and it was a day game following an extra innings night game. Some guys were going to need rest. Maybe, one or both of them asked for a day off, or were not even feeling well. There is more that goes on in a clubhouse than we hear about. Either way they came back looking good and the Sox won both games. It's hard to believe three days later that people are still upset about this.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 22, 2010 -> 01:43 PM) Is anyone really suprised that Ozzie is doing this to Viciedo? We all know that he shouldn't have been brought up if he wasn't going to get regular playing time, but KW had to know what he was getting into when he made the move. Yes, Kenny did have to know. Him and Ozzie had a meeting to discuss Viciedo's playing time. Maybe, this is the plan. Afterall, it was Kenny's decision to call him up.

I'm surprised so many people are letting Kenny Williams off the hook. Ozzie needs to take a huge part of the blame in this mess, maybe even the lions share, but Kenny is right there with him. Let's face it, he built this current mess of a roster and he needs to take responsibility. A lot of people want to put this roster on Ozzie, but that is very short sited. I don't remember reading or hearing any where that ozzie demanded Pierre be here, and if Kenny didn't want him he didn't need to trade for him. He considered Pods and talked with the Yankees about Gardner, amongst other possibilities before Pierre. I know Pierre is an Ozzie favorite from about seven years ago, but it wasn't a demand. Kenny traded for Kotsay and signed Jones to be bench guys. As has happened many times in the past, a better alternative was not provided so they are playing regularly. Yes, Ozzie said didn't want Thome(which I think Kenny completely threw him under the bus in that whole situation), and liked the team as is, but what is he suppose to say about his team? Why was the Thome stuff aired publicy at Soxfest except to make Ozzie look like the bad guy? I didn't hear Ozzie protesting when they had talks with Matsui or Damon, or even Nick Johnson. Teahen was all on Kenny. Another underachieving and very poor defensive player. A Kenny Williams staple. The insistance on Quentin going back to right was supposedly all Kenny. The fact that he wants to keep building teams around pitching, and yet he keeps ignoring defense really is a problem. Kenny has built teams with signifacant holes in them since 2007, and is now operating one of the worst farm systems in all of baseball. I have praised him for his moves in the past, and seen him do some incredible things for this organization, but I feel like his ego and past success have really caught up with him. This organization is in a bad spot right now, and I feel like it has more to do with Kenny than Ozzie. Again, not to abstain Ozzie from any of this, his behavior has been nothing short of embarassing for a while now, but I can see a strong argument for getting rid of either, or both. Anyway, the players really are at fault. If Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, Beckham, Quentin, AJ, and a few others are playing anywhere near their expectations, this team is right in it. Also, I'm not sure how much stock I would put in this Heyman blurb. He's using a source familiar with the situation. Is that even a source? What does that even mean? Maybe JR just wants to give him the rest of the year. Maybe, he wants them both gone at the end? Maybe, this is all blown way out of proportion and sensationalized?

It may be a way to dump Linebrink. It's the only way this could make sense.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Mar 1, 2010 -> 03:50 PM) Sounds like Berkman. He's clearly referring to Geoff Blum.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Feb 17, 2010 -> 10:17 AM) See, with situations like A-Rod or Teixeira, I find it hard to put all that on an agent. No one forced the buying team to pay that much. They wanted to do it, could do it, and did it. The big spenders in the league bid on these guys. One team won out. If there's a problem with the system, you change the system. You dont sit there and just expect all the agents to change their way of doing business. Plus, Teixeira was getting competing offers from BOS, no? You're probably right that A-Rod and Texiera are bad examples. But, lets just look at Detroit. Boras has conned them into excessive contracts for Maggs, Ivan Rodriguez, and Kenny Rodgers when nobody else was competing for those dollars or years. Or what happened with Gagne in Milwaukee. He does this with smaller contracts as much as larger deals. I'm sure it's why the Sox and Tigers are holding firm. Or one of them really isn't involved. They won't speak up to let a rival get a player at a cheaper price. Edit: My two cents, as if anyone cares, is that the Sox are seriously involved and the Tigers interest has been overstated or Damon has no interest in playing there. Normally, the Sox wouldn't be hanging around this long. Either way this turns out, I think it will be a huge difference in the future relationship with Boras.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Feb 17, 2010 -> 10:04 AM) No reason to doubt their reliability now. At least no more reason than at any other time. Just like any news leaks, regardless of who its coming from, we can probably assume some correct info and some incorrect. Boras isnt that different from any other forceful agent. He has the big name clients and has happened to be the guy setting the bar high on a few occasions. I'm sure he leaks this and that, but his methods are thought of as more cutthroat just because he seems to have a lot of the league's talent in his clientele. Not really. He's an entirely different animal. He creates markets for competition that aren't there(Holliday, Texiera, A-Rod, I-Rod). He uses Heyman and Rosenthal because they are respected. Everything he does is calculated. Some of the biggest reasons the Sox don't deal with him is because his negotiations are dragged out so long, and he manipulates the media and market, and he just uses teams and makes them look bad. We honestly have no idea what the Sox and Tigers are offering, or if they are really deeply involved, none.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 17, 2010 -> 09:28 AM) And right there is why this thread is dragging on and why everyone is getting flustered...this is a classic Scott Boras quasi-public negotiation game. Yep. All information is coming from Boras. Not a word has been leaked from the Sox or Tigers. I honestly still don't believe anything that has been uttered. It's all Scott Boras creation. Heyman is his mouthpiece and Rosenthal isn't far behind. It's not coincidence that all the info is coming from them. It's a shame because those two are otherwise pretty reliable journalists.

QUOTE (b-Rye @ Feb 14, 2010 -> 10:17 PM) Tigers lost Edwin Jackson too. Stupid ass article. He was their second best pitcher last year. I'm not saying he can repeat that season, but I'm pretty sure Sherzer isn't ready to do what Jackson did. I don't get the hype of their pitching. It's got a ton to prove. Sherzer for starters needs to improve his control or he will be a 4-5 inning pitcher in the AL. His lack of control and HR numbers will get him in a lot of trouble in the AL. His talent is there, but he also needs to prove he can get through a full season without shoulder trouble. Porcello should be good, but penciling him in at #2 is a big burden for someone his age and level. It also sounds like the Tigers are going to be careful with his pitch counts and innings. Bonderman at #4? Does he have anything in the tank? Can he go deep in games? Is he healthy? Who's #5? Galarraga? That bullpen could end up getting more innings than anyone in the AL. Having Porcello and Sherzer as your 2 and 3 doesn't scare me in the least. And who's to take those added bullpen innings? Coke, Shlereth, Perry, Willis, Zumaya? Do we have to cover the question marks with each of them? Some of these evaluations amaze me. I guess you can spin any team into being awesome if you only look at the upside.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 05:07 PM) Keep in mind that the reason teams are able to platoon guys at DH recently is because of the diminished market for some of these players. Whereas in the past, it was probably more difficult to afford a platoon such as this, it seems like there are some players on the market with some special skillsets that can be had at an affordable price, allowing such platoons to become more feasible. That is cancelled out by a lot of teams reducing payroll. The biggest reason is guys can't use PED's to stay productive into their late 30's and early 40's. That, and teams are paying attention to speed and defense again. It's just an adjustment to the testing.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 04:17 PM) Sure if you want to say that a team who does not have the same guy DH 160 games a year than all of them will be "rotating". But I don't think any of them have a specific plan to be rotating DHs. White Sox, Royals, Tigers, A's, Blue Jays, O's, Mariners are all going to use multiple players to DH. The Angels will if Matsui is healthy, and the Red Sox acquired Hermida to do exactly the same if Ortiz slumps. The Rays will do the same if Burrell is bad or can be moved. You don't think that's trending away from the traditional DH?

QUOTE (docsox24 @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 03:13 PM) What is your basis for saying that?? It has absolutely zero merit. Angels - Matsui A's - Cust Mariners - Griffey Rangers - Guerrero Indians - Hafner Royals - Guillen Tigers - Guillen Twins - Kubel Blue Jays - ?????????? Orioles - Scott Rays - Burrell Red Sox - Ortiz Yankees - Johnson I don't see any rotations on one other team and I think every one of those teams intends to give those guys 450-500 ABs. The Sox are the only team using this bad concept. Of all those guys listed I think only Griffey and the Blue Jays are worse than what we have. To the other person who said people are getting away from the big lumbering DH, this list also disagrees. Only Carlos Guillen (a butcher in the field) and Nick Johnson are not lumbering type guys. Matsui- Scoscia has said if he is healthy he would like him to play in the outfield 2-3 times a week. A's- Cust isn't guaranteed any at bats, and Fox may be DH'ing along with several others Guerrero- I'll give you that one Indians- Stuck with his horrible contract, they would love to get rid of Royals- Ditto on contract, will also play outfield and they would trade him to anyone willing Tigers- Guillen will absolutely be part of a rotation Kubel- Will be a part of a rotation with Young and Thome Mariners- Definitely a rotation Orioles- Scott will probably be primary DH, but will play 1b and OF. May end up starting 1b. Rotating with Wiggington and others Rays- have been trying to dump Burrell all offseason, only DH'ing if they can't move him or sign someone else Red Sox- Stuck with contract Yankees- Full time for Nick Johnson There are a lot, if not most going to rotations, or at least trying to move on from their lumbering sluggers.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 02:57 PM) Which is why I said Damon makes the most sense shake. He can hit, underrated in LF (minus the arm), and can score from 2nd to home or go from 1st to 3rd and can steal you a bag if needed. (12/12 last year in SB, and I think he's good for 10-15.. perhaps 20 if Ozzie wants to run him alittle more with his efficiency of not getting caught SB) IMO he is the perfect candidate currently on the market for the sox. Someone on fangraphs said this is basically the Bobby Abreu steal all over again comparing both of them. Sox have already done their shoring up on defense, baserunning (smarter I.Q. out there) XBH problem which was last in the league, etc.. etc.. except that gaping hole at DH filling it with two guys KW stated would be bench players earlier in the season. I agree he would be perfect. Part of it is I'm not buying the Sox are really players in this, but hope I'm wrong. My comments aren't really directed at you or T-Bolt, or anyone in particular. I guess I'm just saying that this constant harping on the DH position has more to do with the offense as a whole, than with DH in particular. There is a serious change in philosophy across baseball, and the Sox are buying into it, and the Sox had to find a way to improve a lot of areas on their team. The offense is definitely taking a bit of a hit, but I think it could be easily correctable. I wish they didn't have to have any flaws, but there are payroll constraints on this team so it is highly unlikely that will ever be the case. I'm more excited to watch this team, even as is, than I have been about a Sox team since 2006. People are forgetting all too fast how frustrating this team has been to watch the last three years.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 02:36 PM) What areas need to be shored up? Which ones are more important then a left-handed power hitting bat for the middle of the order? How else should we spend our limited resources? The Sox defense,baserunning, and bench were amongst the worst in baseball. They have completely reconfigured the offense, defense, bench, and added to the bullpen. A lot has been done. Baseball is much more than an offensive sport. You can see how the station-to-station slugging mentality has gone the last few years. Yes, they could use another bat, but I think they have improved just about every other area of the team. And changes to those areas were long overdue. I don't see any gaping holes like past teams, and if being one bat short is the problem, regardless of position that bat plays, they are not in bad shape. I'm willing to see how this plays out, and what the final roster looks like come opening day. Kenny is clearly still working to get another bat.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 02:29 PM) There are anywhere between 500 and 600 at-bats in the designated hitter's spot in the line-up. Maybe anywhere between 75 and 100 of those at-bats go to Quentin and Konerko in an effort to rest them, with your "bench" players then subbing for them in the field. Fine. But then what about the remaining at-bats? Should they go to these bench players, or should they go to the likes of a Jim Thome, a Johny Damon, or anyone else who is not considered a bench player? Seems to me the answer is very obvious, but for some reason, we're choosing to go the bench player route. Mind boggling, really. I would love Damon, as well. But, if they don't get another bat I could easily see Quentin and Konerko taking 400+ at bats in that role.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 02:21 PM) Pretty much sums it up. I love the rotating DH idea (most teams are now doing it) but you got to have the talent to do the rotating. I'm sure if we had Jason Kubel on the team I doubt anyone here would be complaining about him rotating despite his s***ty defense, because the man can hit. If the rotator in the DH spot can play great D, thats a bonus, but give me the bat and bad defense than great defense and the s*** bat anyday. The Sox horrendous defense and base running was a huge part of the problem last year. This is a pitching first team, so if the rotating DH can help to improve that, I'm good with it. I would also like another bat, but there were a lot of areas on this team that needed to be shored up, and the Sox do not have unlimited resources.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 12, 2010 -> 12:23 PM) I know you don't like the concept but sooner or later you're going to have to realize that the Sox are not going to have a single designated hitter this year. The Sox like the idea of resting some of the older or injury prone position players by playing them at DH. When Quentin, or Konerko need a break Jones and Kotsay will play the field in those respective positions. These replacements will improve the defense during these times. So, unless you can find a guy who can play first as part of the rotation, Kotsay will stay. Ozzie likes his bat against RHP. This player will also need to be ok with playing part time I'm not sure you can find that player Some just can't let go of the idea that a DH should be lumbering power hitter that can't play the field anymore. Fact is, most teams are going away from this, as players without PED's struggle once they hit their mid 30's, and the game as a whole without PED's is heading back towards speed and defense. There were very few full time DH's last year, and the ones that were weren't all that great, or were winding down their careers. The Red Sox would get rid of Ortiz in a minute if they could, same with Burrell in TB, in fact they have said they may cut him(Ortiz) this year if he struggles out of the gate like last year. Thome and Griffey are going to be in reduced roles, maybe very reduced. Vlad is a big question mark, and Nick Johnson should be the full time DH in NY. He hasn't stayed healthy for a full season in some time. Other than that, everyone is going with a sort of DH by comittee. If people are angry about the Sox DH situation, it should be about how the offense is built in general. I some how have the feeling if the Sox came out and said that Quentin and Konerko were going to get most of the DH at bats, and Jones/Kotsay/Vizqul/Nix/Teahen would be rotating filling out the lineup, not many would be nearly up in arms. When in fact, this is very well what may end up happening.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Feb 11, 2010 -> 02:46 PM) It another issue to trade your best, young player claiming financial inflexibility and then sign Jose Valverde and Damon to deals \ during the offseason. Most Tigers fans think the Granderson and Jackson trades were a baseball decision and not financially motivated. It looks like they are right after Valverde and Damon.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 02:24 PM) So I'm guessing that you thought the whole Soxfest drama was just a show to placate the fanbase? I suppose it could have been, although I highly doubt our FO would mess around with Jim like that. As for the full-time productive player statement, I agree with you there. Guess I just misinterpreted your original statements. My bad. I think they did explore it, as they should have, it just wasn't in the cards this year. I think it was a bit of showmanship for the fans, and the organization wanting to leave on good terms with Jim. It sounds like they were honest and straight forward. From what I've heard, they never really even got into money. If that's the case, than they were never considering it too seriously. Let's face it, if Kenny wanted him, he would have signed him. He has trumped Ozzie's opinion on a player a dozen times in the past, why would it have changed this time? Ozzie is just wearing this one.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 01:41 PM) It don't think anyone ever questioned Thome would play a reduced role this season. That is fairly difficult to argue. But it certainly appears as though there were suitors for him, including our own GM and others, as opposed to your earlier statement that our own GM and every other GM were aware he could no longer be productive. I don't think Thome was ever seriously in the Sox plans. And Jim had to take a very small base salary to earn at bats from the bench. That would indicate to me that nobody trusts him to be a full time productive player anymore. It doesn't mean he can't be, it's just that nobody was willing to make a big committment to him.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 12:58 PM) Kubel played 58 games in the outfield last year, and that was when the Twins had Gomez too along with Young, Span, and Cuddyer. Delmon Young is a terrible defensive LFer - barely better than Kubel - and he is obviously much worse offensively than Jim Thome against right handed pitching. I still think Thome gets close to 100 games at DH next year, barring injury. We'll see. It could happen. It's also possible that Kubel and Cuddyer can't repeat what they did last year, and Thome is there for insurance. All I was trying to say is there was no real market for him to get guaranteed at bats.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 9, 2010 -> 11:28 PM) Umm, what? When was this made clear? I seem to remember it being very possible all along that Thome could be brought back? Secondly, you're basing the fact that Jim Thome, a DH who admits he can no longer play the field, signed a contract in January as proof that every other GM agrees with the assessment that Thome can no longer produce? I'm sorry, but given the fact that Johnny Damon is still unsigned makes that deduction seem a bit loose to me. There are all sorts of factors at play here, and if you base your conclusion all on the fact that Thome signed late and cheap, you're clearly ignoring those other factors, considering there are other productive players still on the market. I remember the talk when Thome was traded to the Dodgers that he wouldn't be back. The training staff doesn't think he can do it for another year. He went through a 6 hour therapy and stretching session before every game to get his back ready to play. He can't keep it up forever. Also, with his long swing that relies heavily on his timing, he wouldn't be very effective with a limited role. Regardless, of the fluff going around at Soxfest, they weren't bringing him back. And he took a small contract to be a bench player. I think that defined his market. He isn't Damon holding out for a two year contract and misplaying his market. That's all he could get if he wanted to continue to play.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Feb 9, 2010 -> 03:23 PM) The fact is that their are players on baseball teams that are almost guaranteed to put up their numbers, year in and year out, Thome wa a guy like that, AJ is a guy like that, superstars like Pujols and A-Rods are like that. It's simple their are some players you can project out on paper that barring injury or devastating decline they will put up numbers consistent to their career averages. The White Sox have exactly one such player (AJ), two if you'd prefer to make the case for Paulie. The fact is that everyone else is a question mark, baseball is full of them. I'll concede that every damn team has these kinds of problems. But not every team would willingly couple these problems with a flimsy excuse for a DH. You don't seem to be able to see past this Thome or DH thing. Thome is exactly the type of guy who is falling off from injuries and decline, due to age. Of all the areas of Sox management to trust, I trust their training staff. It was made clear when Jim was traded last year, Thome wouldn't be back, because they didn't think he could do it anymore. I don't know why people were surprised when he wasn't brought back. I thought it was obvious by the second half last year that Dye and Thome were sliding fast and hard. Not to mention, every other GM seems to agree with that assesment. It was time to move on. People act like their production can't be replaced. The Sox currently have a poor replacement for the DH spot, unless they are really planning on using it to improve the defense and keep guys like Q and Konerko fresh. Keep in mind the easiest 'position' to improve would be the DH. You can't say that about past weaknesses of this team, when we were dying for a CF or SP.