shakes

But those are very valid reasons for fans concerns. They need to overcome the stink of last offseason, and not for the fans, but for the players/agents/industry to start looking at them as real players. They probably need to pay a bit of a premium to get some players here until they start winning. I hope they understand that. Wheeler and Machado were negotiated pretty publicly, and they look like they were pretty well used in both situations. The worst thing they can do is overreact and start making poor trades to suddenly look competent. They have money to spend and should be upgrading that way. Not giving up resources that will be needed down the road.

This is why I was disappointed they couldn't close Wheeler. They won't play with the big boy's for tier A free agents, so you try and get someone with potential to turn into one of those guys,

Can be interpreted as 'Leading' options-I believe the reference is from Ozuna's perspective.

If you are talking about winning a World Series, outside of Cole or Stras, I don't think any of the remaining FA starters get you there. Wheeler was the only one who could have the type of ascension and growth to turn into one of those guys, Keuchel gets you a veteran who can help get you to the playoffs and provide leadership and innings. And he's shown he can do it in a pennant race and won't have a contract that will kill you in case an opportunity to sign a TOR starter comes up in the next couple of years. Other than that the hope now is for Gio, Cease, and Kopech to grow into the dominant starters you need instead of getting them through FA. I would love a Madrigal extension to get him on the big club day one. It would be exciting to get all the youth playing together and pushing each other starting opening day.

These negotiations are always complicated and I don't really buy the family factor as big as it's being played, but it's been discussed in depth throughout this thread and it's just an opinion. We have dissenting views and experience here and that's fine. I appreciate the discussion.

I appreciate the insight into the unions stance. I will say this goes against every agent/accounting approach I have ever seen, including professional athletes-some being MLB players. I will spare the board into a union debate, but I will just politely disagree and say that this 100% would make an agent bad at their job. It's pretty obvious in Wheeler's case that net was a driving factor into the contract negotiations.

There are a lot of warts on Ryu and Bum. I'm curious why there aren't more people open to Kuechel? If he can be had on a 3 year deal I think he's a good fit. I know he's not an attractive pitcher in this era of baseball, but he has some attractive qualities as a fit for the Sox. His skillset generally ages well, and he's the exact type of pitcher Cooper has historically worked well with. The Sox have plenty of power arms, but they need someone who can provide them veteran leadership and take the ball. He has proven he can pitch in the AL in a hitters park and compete in a pennant race. If MLB eases up on the juiced ball he even becomes a bit of a bargain.

I have no insight directly into the unions stance, but any agent worth his salt would ignore that and that is a terrible stance for a players union to hold. What I can tell you with certainty, and 20 years of experience in Finance and Wealth Management of high net worth individuals, that an agent and player would ignore that union stance and only care about net value. These agents wouldn't have clients if they took the unions approach. There will always be exceptions, because the other thing i have learned with certainty is you cannot put limits on human ego, but overall agents will focus on net or they are ignoring a powerful negotiating strategy.

I assure you taxes are highly considered in contract negotiations. It's part of the reason you are seeing weird numbers like $118mm, and the union isn't getting in the way over that. It's also why deferred money and incentives are not counted the same or taken seriously in high end negotiations. Location arbitrage is a very real consideration for agents and dollar figures. It comes into play when you are negotiating contracts even at $100k level. The other thing to consider is when you are playing in the 9 figure pool, taxes are a different game and there are many advantages to having that kind of wealth and ways to work around tax impact.

People are mad because they don't function like a well run org. If this FO doesn't deserve ire for the public mistakes they are making, when can we criticize? I want to know the rules. The one thing they are good at is controlling media messages about how they are relevant and there is always a reason - out of their control- why they can't sign the players they are targeting. And a good portion of the fan base eats it up and carries their water. When Hahn has a track record to standby I'll cut him some slack.

I'm not willing to accept all of these things as fact so easily There's always reasons, but in the end they aren't getting their targets. They are bad at this. I don't know how much more evidence people need.

That's not all you can do. You need to sell your org and your product and get players here. We are seeing a pattern where the Sox are being used as a stalking horse by agents and they seem to willfully play along. I can't believe there are Sox fans that are ok with this and think this is a step in the right direction. Sox fans truly are conditioned for failure. If this is your plan A, you need to prove you can close for once.

Why would you feel bad for him? His job is to sign players, not submit competitive offers. Rick failed at his job again. This is a bad look for the Sox, no matter how you spin it.

This is very common business speak for we are firing someone we respect. He was fired, nothing more. What I find interesting is what this means for others who are gaining influence in the org, and if this is reference to some scapegoating. The main points in this thread that -doing and teaching - are entirely different skill sets, as well as if this means Getz and Jircshele are gaining traction are dead on. I'm still curious to understand if this is about a decision tree fight at the top. Hahn proving his point at a lower level, vs Kenny and Jerry types. Hahn, rightly understands that he has a desirable executive position in high demand, is slow playing his influence and introduction to change, so he can keep his job and try to make change. This may be a trial balloon for the next round of manager candidates and philosophy to free agency. I believe this portends the signings this off season will be smaller, short term, and analytics driven then most expect.

I believe that was the entire point of the post you replied to. Jordan Hicks was their closer.

Agree. Glad to have someone representing what modern baseball is moving towards. Move on from absurd old unwritten rules, when many fans are open to watching players just having fun. Jason and Steve nailed it. Keep having fun Timmy. Every sport growing in popularity embraces players having fun. Be better baseball.

Exactly. This is the type of crap the Sox keep allowing to get out there that is frustrating to people. I don't doubt sources said it, it is just meaningless garbage that are keeping the Sox name in the news. If you don't question what sources are throwing at you at this point, then when? The Sox openly admitted the last bidding war they were "in" went past their comfort zone. This one will be higher with a more skilled agent. It's quotes like these that confirm the Sox are out, they shouldn't get people excited.

Don't waste your energy. Harper is going to be the more expensive player, even though I think Machado is the better player, with the hardest agent to deal with. Zero chance they are in on Harper after all the nonsense we know with the Manny discussions. They may still be slightly kidding themselves, but they aren't in.

I think it's worse than this. If the no opt outs part is true, they were never really at the table. They were pawns. In today's contract environment, not considering opt outs is a non starter. This org is so out of touch, they don't even realize they are the fish at the table. At that point it was just media fodder to keep their name in the news cycle to grasp on to the slightest bit of relevancy. It's really hard to support this organization anymore.

Yeah, Jerry knows how to act like they are in it and drag the fans along for the ride. This shows why being a fan turns you into an irrational person. I would be nowhere stupid enough in any other aspect of my life to keep falling for this type of BS.

I think you nailed it. I was holding out hope maybe Hahn had convinced Jerry it was time to do things differently, and this signing would indicate real changes. Everything lined up for this to work. I haven't spent much time or money on this team for a while and hoping it was time to change that. Clearly, I was wrong.

I didn't mean it was. I just meant his public arrogance is coming out again at the worst time.

Which just makes it worse. It's Kenny Williams arrogance manifesting all the way through the organization and into a very public negotiation. This is so gross. Reinsdorf really has pulled some garbage over his fan bases. We are all in an abusive relationship.

The spin on this is as bad as losing this deal. They couldn't have handled this worse from start to finish. Just an embarrassment of an organization at this point. They deserve every bit of ridicule they receive. I've never had less faith in this team than I do now.

The guy is not for me, but you are right his sources have been pretty good. Better than anyone's sources here(Since Rock's sources have mostly dried up), and better than any of the beat reporters. Nightengale is a stooge for a couple of agents and a couple of FO people. Everything he tweets has an agenda behind it. There is really not much point following anything he says.