nitetrain8601

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:57 PM) I am in the camp of WIlkerson being vastly overrated. He's nothing to holler about in center, he strikes out too much (you want 360 K's from Thome and Wilkerson alone> Me neither), his speed and power hasn't manifested itself the way it has supposed to and he doesn't hit for a high average at all. He draws walks which is a big reason why internet baseball fans love him but I have no interest in Wilkerson personally. Now if you could get him and move him for something useful from a moneyball team, different story Bingo. Grinder he is not. Overrated player by internet users everywhere he is though.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:56 PM) A-rod got traded, does that mean he is bad? Luis Castillo was traded this past offseason. That must mean he's a lock for the HOF.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:48 PM) Well, there is this thing in baseball called pitching. The Texas Rangers have none. And Soriano was the only guy they were "always willing to give up in trades." Yeah because Blalock wasn't supposed to be offered up in that Beckett deal at all. Oh, I remember that now.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:46 PM) Then why not take the younger player with a far greater upside? One of the criticisms of Blalock the last couple of years is he has been swinging for the fences. There are more than a couple scouts who compare him to George Brett when he has his line drive stroke working. I don't mind getting him, but I'm not going to overpay for him. Garland + Crede for Blalock, Wilkerson, and Danks or Diamond is overpaying. Wilkerson is not needed and I'm sure Mackowiak could do as good of a job as him given full-time duties and our OF is already filled. Danks and Diamond haven't proven they could be front end pitchers in AA yet, much less the majors.

QUOTE(TheHammer @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:43 PM) Nitetrain let me guess, you probably defended the Podsednik for CLee trade citing, for one, that Podsednik hit much better two seasons ago than last season. But now that your favorite player is being discussed you only want to look at those 2005 numbers. Can't go back a year or two for Blalock, have to just cite the worst season of his career. Blalock is a stud, all-star caliber player. Crede is just a solid average starter at third. If he's such a stud player, then why is he one of the guys they are always willing to give up in trades? I liked the Pods trade simply because it gave us a leadoff hitter not named Aaron Rowand.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:39 PM) How about these simpler stats? Crede's career stats: .255 AVG, .303 OBP, .439 SLG, .743 OPS Blalock's career stats: .274 AVG, .338 OBP, .471 SLG, .809 OPS Keep in mind that both players have played in hitter's parks for their entire careers. Look at the park adjusted stats. They're the same player.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:36 PM) No, you don't. Crede has to really get hot to get over .260 and about 22 homers. Blalock hit .263 with 25 homers in a down year. Even in Texas hitting in front of Teixeira (I'm not even sure how often that happened to be honest), Crede is not suddenly going to hit .300 or hit 30 homers like Blalock has done. Who hits behind him is not going to have that big an impact unless it's someone like Bonds or Pujols that absolutely scares the s*** out of the opposition. Noboby on the Sox or the Rangers really falls into that category, with the possible exception of a healthy Thome (Teixeira is close, give him another year or two like this last one). In a similar park, Blalock probably is slightly better than Crede. Hell, according to ESPN's park factors, US Cellular was the best HR park in the league this year and was about average in the other categories, and Crede couldn't do much there. Plus the park factors are partially dependent on the team that plays there. Considering that the Rangers have a pretty potent offense and the Sox didn't, that's an issue. I'm fairly sure that Blalock can hit at least .275 at the Cell and up his road average to at least .250 by dropping some games in those unfavorable parks, with little to no effect to his power numbers. The other issue is that that's only part of the deal. Wilkerson is a solid CF that will be pretty productive now that he's out of Washington, and it sounds like we'd get one of their top pitching prospects on top of that. If it were just Crede for Blalock or Crede/Garland for Blalock and one of the two other pieces, I wouldn't be too happy. But frankly since Crede and Blalock is about a draw for us at worst, it comes down to Garland for Wilkerson and a top prospect. I can live with that. Look at the stats I provided above and it has the stats with an adjusted park factor.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:27 PM) Since you're going to be such a smartass, don't expect arguments. It's obvious you can't argue. All you bring up is total stats. Joe Crede: Year Ag Tm Lg PA Outs RC RC/27 OWP BA *lgBA OBP *lgOBP SLG *lgSLG OPS *lgOPS*OPS+ psOPS SB% 2005 27 CHW AL 471 337 57 4.57 | .252 .272| .303 .335| .454 .431| .756 .766| 96 50% Hank Blalock: 2005 24 TEX AL 705 497 88 4.78 | .263 .273| .318 .336| .431 .433| .749 .769| 94 100% I guess no one wants to argue these stats because it makes Crede as good as Blalock which is what I've been saying all along. Here's the glossary just in case people want to play dumb.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:24 PM) http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6411/s...dir1_.oMaaFCLcF Batting 1st: 2 AB Batting 2nd: 1 AB Batting 5th: 5 AB Batting 6th: 11 AB Batting 7th: 58 AB Batting 8th: 253 AB Batting 9th: 102 AB Uribe mostly batted 9th if you recall. Sorry, he had the protection of Juan Uribe and Aaron Rowand/Aj Pierzynski. That's hell of protection.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:22 PM) Yeah you are right, Cleveland and Detroit have better staffs for sure. Why the hell did the Angels even make it to the ALCS anyway, they suck!!! Since you're going to be such a smartass, don't expect arguments. It's obvious you can't argue. All you bring up is total stats. Joe Crede: Year Ag Tm Lg PA Outs RC RC/27 OWP BA *lgBA OBP *lgOBP SLG *lgSLG OPS *lgOPS*OPS+ psOPS SB% 2005 27 CHW AL 471 337 57 4.57 | .252 .272| .303 .335| .454 .431| .756 .766| 96 50% Hank Blalock: 2005 24 TEX AL 705 497 88 4.78 | .263 .273| .318 .336| .431 .433| .749 .769| 94 100%

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:20 PM) And you'd be pretty wrong. And do you know where I can find how many at bats he's had in the 9 hole and 8 hole?

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:19 PM) That's fine and dandy, but Blalock wouldn't hit in the 9 hole. In his career he's provided a lot more offensive firepower than Crede, meaning he's generally held in higher esteem, meaning he's probably going to hit higher in the order. More importantly, you spot in the order doesn't really affect your power numbers or batting average that much like it does for runs and RBI. If a guy is a .250 hitter, he isn't suddenly going to hit .300 if you put him in the #3 spot, or hit 10 more homers just because he hits higher in the order. It still takes a certain amount of ability to do those things, something that Joe hasn't shown up to this point. He might finally have his breakout year and hit .280 with 30 homers, but it won't matter whether he's hitting 5th or 7th. The only possible way that the lineup could in any way improve his power or average is if he's hitting ahead of a more dangerous bat like Thome or Konerko and he gets more pitches to hit. That won't happen with either player. But I'm saying, you put Crede in the 3-4-5 hole like Blalock is and you have the same numbers as Blalock. There is not much of a difference at all. And I'm not say Crede would be a .300 hitter, but I'm saying around .270-.280. And protection does affect a hitter.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) The majority of crede's at-bats were in the eight hole, not nine. Protection is overated... if you are a good hitter you will hit no matter what. Btw, crede's defense was only worse than chavez's this year ( i do not care what the plain defensive statistics show). I'm pretty sure Crede was the 9 hole hitter until the last month or so of the season.

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) Also figure that Blalock is going going to have to face 1 good SP staff in Minny, Cleveland is okay, but then he gets to feast on the Royals and Tigers... THe WEst has great staffs in every team execpt the Rangers..And I can't see him hitting against his own pitchers. Cleveland has a pretty good staff. The Tigers have 2 good pitchers. Royals have like 1. Seattle doesn't have a great staff. Oakland does, but Harden was injured for more than half the year. The Angels had Colon and that's it.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:13 PM) You do know there is a reason he doesnt hit in the heart of the order. Because he is not that good, and not that consistent of a hitter. You cant just say, well, Royce Clayton may hit 200 at the bottom of the order, but if you put him at the 3rd spot he will hit 285. its just not that way. And Blalock is not that good or consistant of a hitter. You could have Kevin Mench in Blalock's spot in the order and you wouldn't miss a beat if you were Texas. Blalock could hit at home and he could hit in the 1st half of a season, that's it.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:09 PM) Wow, I guess those 37 at bats is a pretty good split. Usually we determine a players worth by about 10 games. Come on dude. Yes, every team gets an all-star, whats your point? Are you saying the he didnt deserve it? Or he was the only player on the team who went? Please say that, please/ Dude, I showed you numbers, I showed you expert rankings, I showed you defensive rankings, I showed you opinions. You still wont budge. Anybody out there who watched and knows baseball, knows that Crede is not as good a player as Blalock. Even if his home splits are better, so what? That is still part of who he is as a player. Crede sucks at home, does that mean we should just take into account that he is only the player that he is at home? You cant ignore certain parts of a person's game and compare them, our pitchers all have different home/away splits, does that mean that they arent as good as a player? No. Crede is not as good as Blalock, offensively OR defensively. And he is sure as hell more healthy and better at his age than Crede was. He has a higher ceiling and has already shown his ability. Dude, you don't have to say dude, so much. Okay dude? I'm not a surfer trying to hang 10. I showed you the numbers and you chose to ignore them. Again, I'm not saying Crede is a much better player than Blalock, I would rate them in the same bracket of 3B. I see no point in trading a 3B for another one when it's not an upgrade. If you even leave them in the same spots in the order, what you get from Crede on the road is equal to what you would get from Blalock at home assuming he would be able to hit at our home. You're just trading away more HR's and RBI's in one park for RBI's & HR's on the road.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:06 PM) The bottom line is that we can reasonably expect Blalock to hit at least .260 with 25 homers, 80 RBI, and very good defense hitting 5th or 6th in our lineup. That's not really the case with Joe. He might break out this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him, especially since his back seems to be a bigger issue than most of us would have thought. Moving from Texas to the Cell doesn't mean that Blalock is going to hit .240. The Cell is still a fairly good hitters park, we just can't expect him to hit over .300 like he does in Texas. It's also possible that getting away from Safeco, Network Associates, and Edison Field helps him out. None of those parks are exactly hitter friendly, and about a quarter of his road games are at those parks. .252AVG, 22HR's, 62RBI's. That's out of the 9 slot with no protection and not really a spot in which you could produce mass RBI's. In the 3-4-5 role like Blalock, I think he would get at least 90 RBI's with 28 HR's and a .270avg with protection. Put Blalock in the 9 hole with no protection, he probably gets around the same or less than Crede.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:03 PM) nitetrain, I noticed in the Frank Thomas thread you wrote you never want him to leave. Ever notice his horrific splits the last 4 or 5 seasons between home and away? There's nothing to say Blalock wouldn't flourish at USCF, and as to his numbers dying in the second half, maybe not playing in the 100 degree heat for half his schedule will keep him stronger. Because he was a White Sox for life. I never said I wanted him starting either, did I? I would've preferred for him to retire a Sox.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:02 PM) hahahahahahaaha!!!!!!!!!!!! So, let me get this straight. The Bullpen of the sox, which was 2nd in the MLB in saves, and who were one of the best in baseball all year, now is not as good as Toronto's who ranked 28th in saves. Or we could go stat by stat whereas the sox had a better ERA, wins, losses, WHIP, K/BB, K/9, BAA, and OPS. Now defensively the teams had the same FPCT, the sox had less errors, more dp's and more put outs. But the jays are better, right Of course on offense you are ignoring the 65 more hr's we hit and the 20 point SLG advantage as well. Obviously, you didn't read correctly when I said this year's Toronto team vs the same White Sox team from last year carried over. Man you're a dumbass.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:52 PM) Dude, how can you say he doesn hit at the cell. He had like 12 at bats. Come on master of all splits. Blalock is a 2 time all star at age 25. His offensive numbers are superior. He led the Al 3B defensively. He is a better player, give it up. His numbers are better, his contract will be better, his health is better. You dont know what you are talking about. You want to go straight numbers, fine, I showed them to you , Crede is an Avg offensive player, he ranks as the 19th 3B, Blalock ranks 6th. Seriously, just log off for a bit. I suggest you relook at the number of at bats. It's not even close to 12 at bats. 37 at bats since 2003 to be exact. You do realize that at least 1 player from each team makes the All-Star team right? Even the Kansas City Royals get a All-Star rep. He's not the better player unless you somehow find a way to bring the Texas air and Ameriquest Field to Chicago. I could care less about the contract since Crede's isn't up for another 2 years and we have Fields in the minors. Yeah, but "you don't know what you're talking about" is a sure strong argument Rock. And I showed you the reason why Blalock is a better offensive player earlier in the thread and I told you once again why he has better offensive numbers. I don't think I'm the one who should be logging off for a bit.

I think Brandon Wood is an untouchable for the Angels.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:19 PM) So, which aspect would you like to compare first? Or would you like to compare just overall team aspects? If I were you, I would stick to break out the parts of the team, because comparing the teams, I think going with the world champs would be a no-brainer. I DO believe our players and manager and GM have rings. Fine Starting Pitching White Sox > Blue Jays Bullpen Blue Jays > White Sox Hitting Blue Jays > White Sox Fielding Blue Jays > White Sox(sox are hot at the corners, but Blue Jays are hot up the middle which saves you more runs)

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:40 PM) No the problem is you are seriously underating Blalock and overating Crede like no other. Dont worry about the Rally Crede just let it go I think the stats prove my point more than enough. He sucks outside of Ameriquest Field and he sucks after the All-Star Game. I'm willing to give Crede a chance with his "new" stance than overpay for Blalock. I say overpay because Wilkerson doesn't interest me with all of our OF's and Danks and Diamond have yet to prove they'll be front end starters in AA, much less the majors.

QUOTE(Al Lopez's Ghost @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:02 PM) Yeah, that wouldn't cause any dissension at all. Ozzie will fook him up.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:30 PM) It would be more like Crede and someone else for Blalock. Crede is not the player Blalock is dude. You are overvaluing your man crush by ALOT. The problem is you're seriously overrating Blalock. There's a reason why Texas wasn't as good of a road team as they were at home. Because none of their players could mash on the road minus Mark.