nitetrain8601

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 03:46 PM) Jon Garland is an incredible pitcher. I don't want to dump him. Given infinite salary...He'd be the #2 guy I would resign to a contract extension, right behind MB. However, if Jon Garland cannot be kept, right now through a trade he can obtain us some incredibly valuable pieces - think about what Beane got for Hudson and Mulder. If we lose him as a Free Agent, we will get draft picks. However, right now, if we find a trading partner, he can get us potentially top-tier, All-star talent. Compared with losing Garland for draft picks, that is a much better option. If we could resign Garland at a fair price right now...do it. If he'll sign for what Burnett got, Hell I'd do that too. But I think he would expect more, given his performance last year, and I doubt he'd resign now without wanting to first test the FA market to see what he could get, a-la Konerko. We took a big risk in potentially losing Konerko for draft picks. We can't take that risk with every one of these guys. We have to get something for them. Bingo, I like Garland alot, but if you know you won't be able to keep him and you have a surplus of starting ipitching, then deal him for a fair deal.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 03:18 PM) I am pretty sure it was not the same as Arizona got Vasquez, Shawn Green and some prospects for RJ from Yankees and Dodgers in the 3-way. I don't think RJ and JV had the same value straight up. The Yankees wanted the same thing for Vazquez so they could flip those pieces for RJ.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:20 AM) Hype? Im comparing players, and so was the guy in the BA chat, he is an educated baseball man, bringing hype into the discussion is pointless for arguments sake. Don't give me crap from some ESPN guy. So many people complain about ESPN except when it's to their benefit in an argument.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:20 AM) Stop right there. McCarthy is developed. He is ready now. There is no such rush. Oh, so Don Cooper posts on this board? What if the White Sox trade Garland next year and McCarthy lays out a big fat egg? Are you still going to hold that stance?

I think so too. He seems like a guy who's loyal to his team and he was very grateful that the White Sox took a chance on him. He sees this as his home. I don't think he likes moving around much.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:16 AM) Borchard wasnt half the player that Young is. Young's EBH and doubles numbers are just about the best we have ever seen. Not to mention his sb's and defense. Please, read up a little on the guy before you compare players. I'm pretty sure he's comparing the hype around these prospects. It seems as if most White Sox fans already have their prospects in the big leagues doing big things. So far, none have panned out in some time.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:13 AM) I'm not trying to prove putting a guy straight into the rotation doesn't mess him up. I'm trying to prove it's a path many young pitchers take on their way to success and I'm strongly against keeping McCarthy out of his future role for an entire season. But trackrecords have proven that if you stick him in the pen for a year, they won't suck when they do start. It doesn't hinder their development. Nothing too bad comes out of it. There's no point in rushing McCarthy out there to take on a full season if we don't need him to, which right now is the case. That's my point.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:13 AM) Yes leader-club house with spanish speaking, and by example on the field. The guy is ALWAYS at the mound with the pitcher, ALWAYS taking control in the field, pop ups, dp's whatever, he is the best SS i have seen in awhile in the sox uniform. Its so closed minded to criticize a guys language skills, and not consider his actual leadership qualitities. Because, speaking with current players, the guy is a great presence. Thanks. And Tejada is that much better of a SS and would be better than Uribe in a Sox uniform and could speak with everyone in his clubhouse. Tejada is a guy who does everything Uribe does except better. The only thing Uribe has is a stronger arm, but Tejada's arm is no joke either. Tejada is a natural born leader through example and verbally. Uribe is only a leader through example.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:09 AM) Mike Mussina. Seriously, which team has been the best at developing young arms the past few years? Oakland. Look how many starts from the bullpen that Mulder, Zito, Harden, and Blanton have logged. Vicente Padilla.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:08 AM) He wont ever be the hitter that Maggs was, but he is alot better of a player than Reed was. I would have rather traded Anderson instead of young, but its too late now. Im just worried about our bullpen at this point. We have a closer with a screw in his arm, one lefty, A guy with a messed up back, and Polite. Bullpen strength is neccessary for this team to win. Funny how Jenks goes to being a beast to all of a sudden being minimized to being a guy with a screw in his arm. I'm pretty damn sure you didn't want Marte here as I was a vast minority. I'll give you Hermy. Politte is good. When you have guys that could go deep(as Ozzie proved last year) into ballgames, that makes your bullpen better. We added a horse to the pitching staff. As it currently stands, we also have a long reliever finally. Anyone we bring in will almost surely have a better season then they did last year because of the defense we have and because of the fact that they'll get more than proper rest with the horses on the staff.

QUOTE(Steff @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:07 AM) MT has one of the best, if not the best, attitudes. His rivals that of only Pujols that I can think of off the top of my head. Always bringing us that insider info steff. Take Levine's job.

QUOTE(Steff @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:51 AM) Hu...?? He can't even hold a conversation with 95% of the team and staff. Good grief.. Oh how I wish Crede had caught that damn ball. :headshake

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:59 AM) I don't think it will jack him forever. Just doesn't make sense to halt the development process for a whole year just because we're running low on arms in the pen and a starter might get injured at some point. He shouldn't have to be working long relief one month then on a whim be a starter and go back and forth. For every all-star stating pitcher you show me that made appearances out of the bullpen, I will give you someone who didn't. Roger Clemens to match your Pedro Martinez. Curt Schilling.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:52 AM) I don't think you can really call them the same. McCarthy uses a 4-seamer much more often than Buehrle and it probably averages about 4 more mph than Buehrle's. As a starting pitcher McCarthy puts more strain on his arm. As a guy who used to throw around,(I say throw because I wasn't great with location), a 4 seam doesn't put strain on your arm unless your mechanics are whacked ala Kerry Wood. That's why even little leaguers are allowed to throw is as opposed to a curve. From what I've seen, McCarthy has good mechanics.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:50 AM) I agree. Chris Young, from all accounts, has all-star potential, and that can't be said for most of these other "prospects" we have traded away over the last couple of years. At the same time, I really think this is a smaller piece of a bigger puzzle and will be a good move in the long run. Wasn't Jeremy Reed supposed to be a HOF player by now? I mean it seemed like it if you talk to most "knowledgeable" Sox fans(not saying you). If Chris Young turns into Mike Cameron, it won't bother me much at all. If he turns into a Magglio Ordonez with Mike Cameron defense, then I'll say we lost the trade depending on what Vazquez does. Kenny has won it all, he went to sleep, and decided the next morning he liked it so much he wanted to do it all over again.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:47 AM) Haren was a starter every game he appeared in for his rookie year with the Cardinals. Next season he made 9 appearances from the bullpen. Are you telling me it was those 9 games he worked out of the bullpen in St. Louis that solidified him as a starting pitcher one year later? Give me a break. Things worked out for Haren because he is a starting pitcher and was given a full season to acclimate himself to the role. Include the playoffs. Also, stick McCarthy in AAA if you don't want to "mess" with him. You want a better example, look at Pedro Martinez. His rookie year he made two starts and 63 appearences out of the bullpen. You act as if moving a rookie to the bullpen is going to jack him as a starter forever.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:45 AM) Anything availabe as good as VIz could be next year? What about A LHP? Im skeptical that KW is just trying to be daring because last year it worked. IM glad Quick is back from his one-year vacation from the board. Weren't you one of the guys calling him a jizzmopper? Anyway, Tavarez is available. Hasegawa is a FA. Isn't Eddie Guardado a FA? I thought they declined the option.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:44 AM) Here are the right-handed relivers available. Some solid guys, maybe Jeff Nelson and Tavarez. I would go after Tavarez and Felix Rodriguez. Rodriguez was good prior to experiencing Mel Stottlemeyer.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:42 AM) Yeah, butter. I like those slippery relief pitchers. Hopefully no one else finds out that he's doctoring the ball.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:38 AM) Pitchers that log over 500 K's and maintain a K:BB ratio over 5 in the minors are something special. They don't do it on one great pitch, I can guarantee you that. You do not relegate an arm like McCarthy's to the bullpen. We all know Buehrle started out of the pen and that's all well and good, but it's easier to shorten and then re-lengthen an arm like Buehrle's than it is McCarthy's because of the type of pitchers they each are. Both McCarthy and Buehrle are the same. They're not power pitchers so you don't have to worry about endurance as much as you would for a guy who throws a 99mph heater and a hard slider. McCarthy is like a righthanded Buehrle in terms of type of stuff. Many people thought Haren's arm shouldn't have been relegated to the bullpen and that worked out well for the Cards, A's and Haren.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:30 AM) He lost me, TQ. I'm just awestruck. Clearly, there is another move in the wings, here, and I have no idea what direction Kenny is heading. Is he perfectly clear on what direction he is heading? I was always the first to salute Kenny and give him the benefit of the doubt--the man brought a World Championship to this city after 88 years--but, he truly lost an ardent supporter today. He flat-out cut off his nose to spite his face. -You lose bullpen depth in Luis Vizcaino. Remember bullpen depth? You know...one of the key components to that World Series Roster -You completely f***-up McCarthy's situation. That kid was absolutely ready for that fifth-starter's role this year and I can say that without a shaddow of a doubt. What the hell is going to happen there? Are you telling me you are going to stick Brandon in the bullpen for 2006, waiting for an injury? -It appears Jon Garland, a guy who would probably leave after this season, whom CAN BE REPLACED IN 2006 FREE AGENCT, is on his way out along with Chris Young, the Golden Boy and CF of the future. He lost me. He's going to have to earn this supporter--and his money, devotion, and time at the ballpark--back. Viz was decent(I thought he got crapped on too much on here), but I remember tons of people saying he sucks and he should've not been thrown out there like a Damaso from the right side. Mopup duty bullpen guys are easily obtainable. You don't f*** up anything with McCarthy. There's still a chance Garland gets dealt. And remember Buehrle coming out of the bullpen when he first came up? Yeah. I think it worked our pretty decently. Also look at the formula St. Louis had with Danny Haren. It looks like that helped out in Oakland. There's something to putting someone in the bullpen and using them as a spot starter to allow them to develop. It's not only the White Sox using this formula. Again, the emotional attachment to BMac's situation is ridiculous. And since when has protecting ourselves a bad thing for the organization?? Garland sounds like he's going to leave. That will open up a spot for the beloved Brandon McCarthy. Also, what great prospect has Kenny given up that has panned out? If Kenny Williams has to earn your respect coming off of a World Series title, then I'm sure they won't miss you much at the ballpark then.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:29 AM) He was not rocked in those games because he was missing a pitch, he was rocked in those games because he was throwing only fastball/curveball. With just those 2 pitches, BMac is beatable. But that changeup is the pitch that makes everything else work. It's like Santana from the right hand side. It just makes people look like idiots. No one has been able to pick it up at all, and combined with the curve ball it just dominates people. When he wasn't throwing that pitch, he was getting beat. Late in the year he started throwing it more, and suddenly no one could hit him. I like the idea of him getting another pitch, just to throw a few times per game, just to keep people even more honest. And most people still think he'll add a few MPH to his fastball as his frame fills out. But I'm saying, we don't know if he still doesn't trust his changeup. He needs to. Why go through experiencing growing pains in the rotation when you could build up his confidence and have him fully develop another pitch as a MR/Spot Starter?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:14 AM) I said it in August and got laughed at, but I will say it again... $90-100 million. You were right. I'm picked that as my choice in this thread. I honestly thought we would max out at 90 if we were lucky.

QUOTE(quickman @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:24 AM) i am clearly dissapointed in you of all people. Me as well quickman. Again, to me it seems like emotional attachment over players is more important than trying to win it all again.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:21 AM) McCarthy already has three pitches. He doesn't need to develop anymore. And here's the idea about McCarthy in the bullpen--it won't be because management doesn't believe he's "fully ready," but rather, because of the possibility of injury many here are alluding to. How the hell could you conclude he's not ready after the manner in which he ended the season? You give your kidney McCarthy isn't the best starter next year, and I'll give my kidney if Garland is even pitching in a White Sox uniform. And he only has 1 that he throws great. His fastball is too straight and there's not enough power behind it. His changeup stinks, but it's a way to keep hitters off-balance. He'll work nicely the first time he faces teams, but the 2nd time around, it'll be alot harder. Now if he were to develop a cutter or a slider, then he would be much better off. Let's not forget the games he was rocked or the games in which he should've gotten rocked(Detroit last year)