Frank the Tank 35

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 13, 2006 -> 01:11 AM) There's a flaw, of course. A 118 point disparity in average. A 25 point disparity in OBP. Thomas has been better, there's no doubt...but it seems pitchers, most likely right-handed pitchers, are pitching around Thome a little bit. If you are getting nothing but bad pitches, why would you swing? Jim's OBP is pretty constant across the board. That's a positive indictment of his talent for sure. It's clear when he does swing, things aren't happening the way they did in the first half. I think it's contributed to the second half's feast-or-famine offense. Not JUST Jim, most of the team can take blame in that. Sure it's great to have a high SLG% in those situations, and maybe you can score not just one run at a time but several. However, when you're making a lot of outs in the process, there's a point where it becomes detrimental. Instead of moving the line, it kills rallies. Hence when we're taking big swings and making good contact, we massacre the competition. Of course, that's only been happening once or twice a week lately whereas it had been happening nearly daily in the first half. Our offense has been struggling to score runs because many of our hitters refuse to cut down on their swings and be satisfied with just getting a single or moving the line.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Sep 12, 2006 -> 12:29 AM) I do not even see this as a debate. Jim thome has a an ops of 1.207 with risp this season. Frank thomas has an ops of .968 with risp this season. Does it surprise any that thomas has 22 home runs with no one on? Compared to his 14 with a runner on. Thome has 21 with runners on compared to his 18 with no one on. I always hear people complain that thome is not clutch and such. Thomas has 706 ops in close and late situations (50 ab's) compared to thome' s .900 ops (60ab's). If you really want to complain about thome... you can point to his .250 average with no one on (still not a bad .915 ops). His s***ty .540 slugging in that situation would currently have him tied for 25 in all of baseball with grady sizemore. Thomas was never coming back. It is plain and simple. We were obviously not picking up his contract. He would have never come back... do you think he would ever accept a 500k deal from the sox? He would have felt a team that he did so much for (he made a couple bucks along the way when he was injured... yet he forgets such things) should stick by his side and pay up. He has always thought he was underpaid and off-season would have been no different. I highly doubt either side was ever close this off-season. I don't want to automatically assume you were addressing me, because you know what assuming does. However, since you used RISP stats reminiscent of my own, I'll take that as my queue... I'm not sure if anybody here is debating the decision of replacing Frank with Jim. I think we all understand the logic (and pent up emotional rage) that went into that decision. And while it is true that we may gripe and bemoan how hot Frank is compared to Thome at the moment, we all understand that Jim has done a good job for us this season and provides valuable commodities to our offense. That said, you brought out some numbers. You just had to bring the ruckus. Bear in mind that up until now I was not comparing Jim Thome to Frank Thomas. I was merely criticizing Jim for his lack of clutch hitting in the second half. Even now as I debunk your numbers, this is for comparison purposes only and does not reflect a hope upon hope that Bud Selig changes the rules of baseball for one magical star-crossed moment wherein we trade Jim to bring back the Hurt. Thome was undoubtedly clutch in the first half. Fancy OBP+SLG=OPS statistics aside, he hit .388 with RISP. That's just plain getting it done. MLB average for BA with RISP is somewhere in the .270's for all hitters, pitchers included. The AL average is somewhere around the .280's. However, my initial argument clearly included the perimeters RISP post-ASB. Our offense hasn't been the vaunted juggernaut of the first half that so menacingly carried the team. Sure Pods sucks, but when's the last time he didn't suck? I'm sure there are a myriad of causes, but Jim's a veteran hitter. He was brought in to be THE offensive leader, if/when healthy, in the clubhouse. Nobody thought JD was going to go off like he has. PK isn't the slugger Jim is or was. In a tight playoff race, a slugger with the reputation of Thome should not regularly be striking out or weakly grounding out to second with RISP the way he has. If you want to compare how Jim and Frank are doing in the second half with RISP while the playoffs loom eerily close, let's have at it: Frank post-ASB RISP: .353/.434/.662 in 68 AB with 41 RBI, 7 HR, and 17 SINGLES Jim post-ASB RISP: .235/.409/.529 in 34 AB with 11 RBI, 2 HR, 4 2B, and 2 singles Frank has accumulated exactly twice as many ABs in this particular situation as Jim. Although it is not an exact science, I think we can agree the best way to compare would be to double Jim's numbers since it would keep that precious OPS number the same. That equates to: Jim post-ASB RISP (x2): 68 AB with 22 RBI, 4 HR, 8 2B, 4 singles I know what you're thinking. "So you're saying you can actually score runs hitting singles instead of trying to park it every time up?" Yes, that's exactly my point. How profound. "But wouldn't it totally make your SLG and hence your OPS go up if you just tried to uppercut swing everything into an XBH?" Well yes, if you were constantly making solid contact, something that would be increasingly difficult the harder you try to swing out of your shoes. "So how could you circumvent this problem and find a happy solution?" A good approach might be to try shortening up your swing when you have two strikes. Solid contact certainly has a better chance of driving in runs than rolling over on a pitch. I have not been able to watch many Oakland games this year. Therefore, I cannot say with certainty that is what he is doing. If he's not, then shame on him, and he'll be slumping sooner rather than later. However, the numbers would suggest he is actually shortening up his swing and hitting singles with RISP in order to have a better chance at actually scoring runs. Even though he went 0-4 today, watching the ESPN highlights, it was clear that he was protecting the plate and nearly had two singles with RISP. But regardless of what Frank's doing, that is the approach I'd like to see Jim, as well as others, take into this final stretch. In the end, the point that I'm trying to make is not Jim vs. Frank. It's Jim vs. Jim. Do better and get us in the darn playoffs.

QUOTE(SinkingShip06 @ Sep 12, 2006 -> 11:55 PM) we need to get someone on the bases and make something happen. screw swinging for the fences. GO ROSS GO I dunno, going for the bomb keeps our sparkly OPS numbers up.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Sep 11, 2006 -> 08:12 PM) I'm also still laughing at Frank the Tank still claiming Thome has been "unclutch" this second half despite an OPS well into the 900's with RISP I don't know who's more annoying. The blind Frank extremists, or the Sox fans who used to bash him when he was on the team. Hooray! I always knew I could make it as a comedian. What say we jump into that OPS well and pull out its components? Yes, he walks. We've established this. Pitchers do respect his power, and he has a good eye. Oh, high SLG... one possible way that occurs is when a powerful hitter takes an all or nothing approach increasing the chances he'll get an XBH (or K or roll out to the second baseman). So yes, since the ASB he's had 34 ABs with RISP producing 8 hits, 4 of which were doubles and 2 of which were hrs. So in terms of SLG: 2(singles)+8(doubles)+8(hrs)= 16/34= .529. Congrats. That means in 26 of those 34 ABs, he left the runners on base. BTW, has anyone seen my eyes?

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Sep 11, 2006 -> 05:43 PM) Think his run production numbers have anything to do with our leadoff hitter having a .287 obp in the 2nd half? Actually, it has less to do with it that you might think. See Jermaine Dye. Conveniently for the purpose of this argument, JD took over the #3 spot on exactly August 1st. Since then he has amassed 23 RBI WITH RISP (utilizing only 4 HRs) and 35 RBI total. Like Thome, JD has had some days off due to injury as well. He's also hitting .350 with RISP post-ASB, hardly the dropoff from his .366 prior to the ASB. Funny thing is, Thome now hits behind Dye who had a .390 OBP in August and currently has a .421 OBP in September. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb...&statType=1 I'd like to clarify my stance. Thome has his uses. Even now when his clutch abilities seem zapped, he still gets on base and is more productive than many other hitters. I completely understand the logic behind the offseason move to bring him in and kick Frank out. We'll see how this all plays out in the final stretch.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2006 -> 12:40 AM) Except that Uribe and Podsednik is a potential realistic option for Philadelphia, seeing as how Rollins is making $7 mill in each of the next 2 seasons, $7.5 mill the two after that, along with an $8.5 mill option or a $2 mill buyout. If they can get out of that, I'm sure they'd take the salary cut this year in Pods and Uribe, along with shorter contracts. It's also not like Philly is loaded with OFers...they would have some use for Podsednik, and then obviously Uribe as well. A prospect would undoubtedly need to be thrown in, but we are not talking about a stupid offer here. I tend to think it's pretty close, especially if they can't find a taker for Burrell, and I doubt they will with the $27 mill he'll earn in 07 and 08. Gillick is still trying to dump salary over there, because that was a big friggin mess Wade got that team into. If that's all it took to get Rollins, I'd be ecstatic. Rollins is doing a fantastic job of leading off in front of Utley and Howard, imo. In this market, $7 mil/year for Rollins isn't so bad considering Furcal just got $13/year and Lugo looks to be getting $8/year this offseason. It's not like he's that old either. I honestly think it would take either McCarthy or Broadway in addition to Uribe (and praise them if they take Pods) to bite. QUOTE(beautox @ Sep 11, 2006 -> 01:43 AM) you forgot freel. I might be up for Freel. The knock on him is his longevity/endurance. He plays so balls to the wall that he tires himself out and goes through long slumps. He's been very effective when used sparingly, but when he plays for an extended period of time, he slumps. However, with the way Oz handles his bench, he'd probably get ample rest during the season.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Sep 10, 2006 -> 10:04 PM) I only mentioned August and September figuring it'd be too hard to split up the july stats, but I missed the split at the bottom. Of course Frank the Tank will not explain how having a .409 OBP and .529 SLG% in RISP in the seoncd half is a "bad" thing :rolly: He does have a reputation, and pitchers respect him enough to issue the token walk. It's just frustrating to me when one of your supposed offensive leaders is easily being had with frequency when it matters most. Lately, the norm is either K or roll over the pitch to the second baseman. Lefties are merciless on him. I just expect more consistency from a veteran/leader especially down the stretch in a playoff run. Maybe I got spoiled with his stellar start, and in actually this is what we can expect from him? The thing is, if you look at just his regular pre/post-ASB splits, they're pretty much in line except for the drop off in homers. .298 vs .285 average and .414 vs .416 OBP. Quite simply, he's not getting it done in the clutch NOW when we need it most.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 10, 2006 -> 09:48 PM) Santo....is this .242 incorrect? http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/indivi...p;sitSplit1=rsp Updated to .235 post-ASB

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 10, 2006 -> 08:20 PM) I can obviously tell this wasn't directed at me, but what the hell's wrong with Jimmy Rollins, if the price were to be right? I don't want him leading off, and he's a better 2-hole hitter, but players like Crawford, Rollins, Reyes, and even Furcal and Lugo don't need to get on at a .380 clip to be successful leadoff hitters. Due to their speed, they can get on at a .330 clip and still score a lot of runs, what with XBH's, stolen bases, and scoring from first on a gapper. The Sox have virtually no one that can score from first on a gapper right now. The players you mentioned have at least SOME semblance of power. When a leadoff hitter hits a few homeruns, he can score himself 10-20 more times per season. Honestly though, how many leadoff hitters have an outstanding OBP this year? Youklis and Sizemore are the only two at .380 or higher. Youk's not fast and Sizemore, while quick, doesn't have blazing speed. Pods is hardly the success story when it comes to stealing bases. He doesn't have that natural speed and relies on technique. Bottom line is he isn't that fast and gets caught far too often. He lacks any sort of power which would help negate his .330ish OBP like it does for Rollins. You could even make a case for him if he was a great defensive OFer. But alas, he brings little to nothing to the table. Getting that high OBP, fast, moderately powerful guy to lead off would be ideal, but there are only a couple of those in the league. I'd settle for either the Youk-type, who can get on base at a great clip, or a fast/moderately powerful/good D Rollins-type. Outside of actually getting Rollins, I think the best available option would be a high OBP guy. I really hope the Phils continue their sale, and we can somehow get Rollins though.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Sep 10, 2006 -> 01:53 PM) I would love to see Jimmy Rollins in a white sox uni next year. You think Pods and Uribe would get it done? Probably would have to throw in a prospect... That would absolutely not get it done. Phils are in the process of dumping older players and/or bad contracts. They'd want pitching and/or high level prospects in the event they even decided to trade him. That said, I'd love Rollins. He's like a Crawford-lite. On a side note, does anybody know what the stipulations are of a typical no-trade clause? Once a player waives his no-trade clause and is traded to another team, is the clause forever removed or does he still retain that right to veto any trade?

Thome pre-ASB RISP BA: .388 Thome post-ASB RISP BA: .242 and just for perspective... Uribe 2006 RISP BA: .287 Stats to ponder. I'm sure everyone has their own aggrivating stats. This one is my personal irk.

QUOTE(cgaudin @ Sep 9, 2006 -> 12:36 PM) I know Sweeney is still green, but bringing him in now is probably a calculated risk. I believe he will do better than Podsednik has done this year. But then again......that ain't saying much! If he hits .260 with 30 stolen bases, we should be okay, and his defense will make up for Podsednik's atrocious defense. He will catch more balls cause he won't play at the edge of the warning track like Pods does. Why the hell does Pods play so deep all the time, even against weak hitters? Uribe, overall, is not that bad. But if the Sox replace Garcia with McCarthy they will save some change to sign a top-shelf shortstop. Still, I don't think they can afford Miguel Tejada, but he would look good in a Sox uniform. I think just giving the starting job to Sweeney next year would be a mistake. Without a backup plan, it could conceivably be reminiscent of BA's first half. We took the shot in the arm there because all the other starters were veterans and known quantities. I'd prefer to have Sweeney start in the minors with possibly a stopgap solution in LF if we can't acquire the services of a great player. If BA comes out next year tearing the cover off the ball, THEN it would be better to take that calculated risk of Sweeney. If BA regresses or has a sophomore slump, then I would think it wise to hold off on Sweeney. Tejada? I don't think we'd be able to pull that off, but in the event the Sox did, money would not be an issue. As the whole salary concerns were raised last offseason, it is evident that the Sox ownership reinvests their earnings into the following year's team. Considering the remarkable attendance figures this year, I expect the salary for next year's team to be AT LEAST as high if not higher than this year. Hopefully we can make the playoffs and really supercharge next year's available salary.

QUOTE(WinningUgly85 @ Sep 8, 2006 -> 11:40 PM) I don't criticize ozzie because I believe in his managerial skills. I think many of you are forgetting that Ozzie instills confidence in his players by showing that he trusts in their abilities. So I don't mind that he left Jenks in, not because we won but because Jenks will have the confidence next time around to close out a perfect game. Just remember without this ingredient we wouldn't be World Series champs. Is there a time and a place for certain managers though? Maybe his style was conducive to last year's team but has a degrading effect on this years? I'm not saying one way or another because that's just hyphothetical... If in the series finale there is a save opp., do you handle the situation the same just to instill confidence in Bobby?

QUOTE(greasywheels121 @ Sep 8, 2006 -> 11:17 PM) This is all hindsight now, but Jenks had to start the inning. I agree. Everyone seemed kinda mad at each other in the game thread. Now that we've won, and heads are cooled off, maybe we can make some relevant conversation. I'm actually pretty disturbed by the whole situation. First, something's wrong with our closer. Second, I generally support Oz, but I'm on the edge. Some of the managing is starting to eat at me. Whether or not that's my place to assess those judgements is another matter. However, it appeared to me, at least, that it was the wrong call keeping Bobby in that long.

Let's see where this goes...

HOLY s***

Sorry, I'm not familiar with managing a bullpen. Should Jenks have been taken out after the first or second double?

Just another example of our players picking each other up. Ozuna coming up with the big DP when Pauly failed.

Just a point I'd like to make regarding the lead off position next year... Quick list of stolen base leaders in decending order: Reyes, Pierre, Crawford, Figgins, Hanley Ramirez, Dave Roberts, Patterson, Suzuki, Soriano, Pods, Felipe Lopez, Freel, Rollins, Brian Roberts, Furcal, Jeter, Taveras, Abreu, Lofton, Vizquel, Damon, OCab, Phillips, Lugo, Cameron, Castillo, Byrnes, Gathright, Sizemore, Crisp, Weeks, Barfield Out of that list, the only players I'd imagine would be available would be Pierre, D Roberts, Soriano, Lopez, Freel, Rollins, Taveras, Lofton, Vizquel, Lugo, Cameron, Byrnes, Crisp. Trying to get younger, we can eliminate Roberts, Lofton, and Vizquel. Lopez' D is atrocious. I think there have already been discourses about reasons why Pierre, Cameron, Taveras, and Crisp would be bad ideas. Lugo is going to be overpaid. It probably wouldn't be wise to invest in a player having a career year at this junction, ie Byrnes. Are we gonna kid ourselves with Soriano? I used to be an advocate of Freel, until I drafted him on my fantasy squad this year. The problem with Freel is that he plays so hard and all out that he tires himself out and then hits huge slumps. The last thing we need is a feast or famine leadoff hitter. In my estimation, if we can't land Rollins, the whole idea of a speedster at the top of the lineup should be abandoned. (Honestly, I think Rollins is a longshot just to be moved.) At the cost of sounding Beanesque, I wouldn't mind just going with someone who has a high OBP at the top of the lineup. Heck there are 4 players with more runs scored on our team than Pods: Thome, Dye, Konerko, and Gooch. Needless to say, you don't have to be fast on a team of sluggers to score runs (although it helps when you knock yourself in). A stopgap solution might entail a Brady Clark or Frank Catalanotto. If we weren't so loaded on lefties, I'd be up for a Ryan Church experiment too. Unfortunately, there just aren't many good options available for next year. Hopefully KW can be creative.

Pods- the suck Gooch- tired? lack of bubble drinks? maybe bleaching his hair would help Dye- injured Thome- still injured, enjoys leisurely games of pepper with second basemen Konerko- Wait, what? There's a RIGHT field?? I wish you weren't such a liar... AJ- No, you're so wrong. "Casey at the bat" has a HAPPY ending. I know, I just watched it on my PSP. Crede- Umm.. it's 2005 still, right? Cuz pop-ups are so en vogue. Uribe- finds teasing fans with his potential and muscular glutes highly erotic Anderson- Let me bat. Please.

From Buster Olney via "that hated site"

Rotoworld: Full no-trade

Would that really have an effect on this year's offseason? Seems to me like it wouldn't go into effect till next year? It should make the July deadline more exciting than it has been the past couple years.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Aug 26, 2006 -> 08:39 PM) Wait till the pink fuzzy bunny Chris Rongey spins this pile of dung tonight. I cant wait for the show. Lets see if I can make it past the screener tonight. I can't wait. Every time someone calls in and suggests BMac start, he throws the notion to the dogs. Time to sweat Chris...

I don't know if anyone pointed this out in a seperate discussion, but Baseball America chose its minor league all-star teams here: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/news/261917.html They picked Fields as their top choice at 3B. Unless KW were intent on keeping him in the team's longterm future plans, now would be the best time to extract maximum value for him.