Frank the Tank 35

I can't remember the last time a national media guy slurped the White Sox this much. I don't know how to feel...

I don't think this has been posted. Good read, a lot of stats for all you stat-heads to ponder. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...ngibles-part-1/ http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...ngibles-part-2/

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Feb 4, 2006 -> 11:24 AM) Dye didn't lead all right fielders in homeruns last season. Both Sheffield (34 HR's) and Vlad (32 HR's) were ahead of him. The reason you hear the stat that Dye had the most homers by a RFer in the AL is because Sheff and Vlad hit a bunch as DH's. So while actually playing RF, Dye accumulated the most. Kind of inconsequential if you ask me.

I didn't play in any soxtalk leagues last year, but I'd be up for it this year if there are openings. I've played the last 4 years in mostly H2H leagues. I know you haven't decided on drafting times, but I absolutely cannot spend 2-3 hours straight in front of my computer during the weekdays. So if there are any leagues predisposed to weekend drafting, those would be preferable. The bigger the league, the better. I play with a mixed bag of Cubs and Cards fans, so I'm looking forward to the challenge of playing with intelligent people.

What type of league is it? H2H, Rotisserie, ? I think there's a seperate forum for this type of topic...

I think I'll insert an analogy at this time... Paying for talent is like paying for shaving tenths of a second off a car's 0-60 time. At first it's relatively cheap, adding horsepower through various BPU, then getting more complicated and expensive with forced induction, etc. After 0-60 in the 5 second range, it starts costing thousands, then tens of thousands once you get into the mid 4 range. The point is that average players make average money. When you want a better player, the price does not have a direct straight-line correlation with talent/performance but rather an exponential one. While JD's contract is certainly a great deal, I don't see Abreu's contract as ridiculously out of line. If you want the White Sox ride to be "extra sporty," you're gonna have to pay up. A LOT more SB's, considerably better avg, dynamite OBP, (a few less hrs sure) is gonna cost you plenty. Considering Dye should probably be making ~$3 mill more, these "added features" with Abreu certainly cover the remaining disparity. Keep in mind, that's value according to dollars. Even though he's being paid more, outside of maybe $2-3 mill, his contract is justified against Dye. Against the rest of the league, it's probably market value. Does that mean we shouldn't trade Dye because he's the better deal? Certainly not, Abreu is still the better player. Contreras+Dye seems > Abreu, but Contreras+Dye looks = Abreu+top SP prospect(+$2 mill per year? wishful thinking) One last tidbit, I know all of us here love our Sox players, but I know KW knows the sell high, buy low principle. He certainly bought low on Contreras and Dye. He could turn Esteban Loiaza (FA signing) and JD (FA signing) into one of the best RF's in the game coming off a down year. JC had a career year (up to this point), and JD had his best year in several years. I'd say they're both high while BA's value is low.

I'm not saying I condone this, but if we included Fields in this deal, I think we could get a good chunk of change back. The Phils are gonna drop David Bell next year and will be in need of a new 3B, something they really don't have internally at this point. Of course with Crede's back, it's better that we keep him unless KW is astronomically wowed. Or perhaps maybe we could convince them that our "top 10 prospect" catcher is really, really awesome.

If this trade actually goes through, I can see one other positive benefit. If Urbina ever gets out of jail, he would likely sign with the Sox. With three of his best friends here, Ozzie, Freddy, and Bobby, there's no doubt he'd come searching for a contract in Chicago. I'm sure the 3 of them would vouch for Urbina to KW about being a great guy, etc etc, in spite of the recent jail time and accusations. I'm not the hugest fan of Urbina but in the current situation, we could do a LOT worse. Plus he has closer experience, something that almost seems as if it's a prerequisite to be in our pen. Of course I'm counting a lot of ifs...

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 03:44 PM) I'm not sure I see him going to Philly at all though. It takes the Sox out of the position they are in right now, and allows them to make basically no move whatsoever at the deadline if a need were to arise. If, god forbid, a starter goes down, you are depending upon Tim Redding or whoever else you get from Philly in the trade to fill in for a while. The Sox could probably manage that way for a little bit, but in the long run would be hurt and it could very well be enough to cost them the division. You make the Mets trade, and you have Heilman and McCarthy battle for the 5th spot in the rotation and with the "loser" moving to the pen to be a swing man type, doing whatever you need him to do. You have also cut salary, have starters locked up for quite some time, and replaced Young in the minors with Milledge. I'll just say that if Contreras ends up in Philadelphia, I'll be surprised as hell. Really? Not even in a deal for Madson? Everyone has their own ideas when it comes to the necessity of a 6th starter in the minors. I think it would definitely be a luxury but not an absolute necessity. I do find it difficult to see JC reeling in Heilman and Milledge. I mean Heilman alone could put up pretty good numbers as a starter, then to add Milledge, a necessity for a Manny trade... I dunno. It would have to be something like JC is seconds away from being traded to the Phils, and Minaya feels like he absolutely could not let that happen, so he forces a trade like this. Even if nothing happens at all, all these trade rumors have given me something engaging to do during the offseason.... and for that, thank you mlbtraderumors.com

I agree... I think behind the scenes KW is pitting the Mets and Phils against one another. I think there might be something to the Phils trade, but in the end, whoever gives up the most will "win."

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 09:37 PM) With Ozzie as our manager, who knows? Urbina Ozzie. Yeah, no kidding... I bet Oz would love to have Garcia, Urbina, and Abreu on his team. They're all best buds in Venezuela.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 08:39 PM) I dont think a deal of that magnitude gets made, but that is very interesting to me, and makes sense. Abreu is Abreu, and Floyd can take over the role McCarthy has right now, and I wouldnt have much of a problem with that. We would still need 1 more arm for the pen. Well Urbina should get out of jail one of these days... the sad part is I don't know if that should be in green or not.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 07:24 PM) Spider bites. That's all I'm gonna say about that. Spider bites. And yet another reason he'll be good! His spiderman powers should be kicking in sometime during the '06 season.

I see you've posted a little info on the Phils board, SSH2005. Of course their fans think they'd be getting ripped, that's how every fanbase reacts to a balanced trade. In response to that guy on the Phils board, you may want to ask how old Clemens and RJ were when they were pitching Cy caliber ball. JC is built like a horse whether they want to admit it or not. In addition, how many of Dye's injuries were freak accidents? Yeah, that's what I thought. He needed 2004 to completely heal from that nasty injury the year before. Many of his career #'s are skewed by freak accidents and their recovery times. I think the Oz would love to have one of his best buds on the team. However, after Dye signed that incredibly affordable contract with the Sox, I think it would be really difficult for KW to trade him. I can see why they're a little wary to give up on Floyd. Think about their previous #1 draft picks leading up to him... Adam Eaton, J.D. Drew, Pat Burrell, Brett Myers, Chase Utley, Gavin Floyd. It's a collection of pretty good players to say the least. He did have a decent showing in '04 when they brought him up at the end of the year.

A new rumor just popped up on the mlb.com boards and the philafans message board about a Phillies-Sox trade. Some radio personality out there put out an Abreu/Gavin Floyd for JC/Dye trade. Sounds equitable but also like bs.

I think the BlueJays would make a great trading partner. They look like they're really trying to make a run at the powers in the East and willing to overspend to do so. As much as they've improved over the offseason, the way they're currently aligned, imo they still don't have a chance against the Yanks. A pitcher like Contreras could give them a powerful 1-3 rotation of Halladay, JC, and Burnett. They obviously have no reservations about overspending, so they'd have to think they'd have a good chance to resign him. I think we could easily pluck their #1 prospect, fireballer Dustin McGowan who should be fully recovered from TJ surgery this year, as well as a good reliever like Jason Frasor. Heck maybe they'd throw in a second prospect as well, maybe hardthrowing Brandon League? I think the Jays have to be banking on great years from all of their players to contend. Some teams may be wary about JC repeating his performance, but moreso than probably any other team, the BlueJays would likely take on such a "risk." I mention this in regard to the Phils and Mets because we're talking about a similar package, one involving a RP and a prospect, preferably a SP. I just think if this is the route we go, we could maximize our returns with the Jays. While I'd like Heilman or Madson, I'm a little leery of the fact that they're both over eager to start. Heilman even requested to be traded if they're not going to use him as a starter. If they came here, they'd need to understand their role is in the pen for at least the next two years barring injury. Any route we go though, KW really needs to rip off his trading partner.

At this point it would be pretty sweet if either the Mets or the Phils got Zito. The other team would feel compelled to add another SP and perhaps overpay a little. (In addition I could stop hearing half my Cub friends talk about Zito going to the North side.) As much as all these Abreu and Milledge deals sound tasty, we could probably benefit the most this year and in the future by a trade with the Dodgers. A pitcher like Contreras could easily put them over the top in the NL West. C'mon Colletti...

Did anybody read the bottom section of the story? There's gonna be a Sox shrine at Harry Caray's restaurant. Gotta love contant visual reminders... "Harry Caray's Restaurant, known more for its Cubs-themed photos and memorabilia, is building a special White Sox World Series display that will be unveiled at 12:30 p.m. Wednesday. Last Wednesday, Mayor Richard Daley was at Harry Caray's for lunch. After Grant DePorter, managing partner of the restaurant, informed him of the plan for the display, the city's No. 1 Sox fan said he loved the idea and would be dining at the restaurant a lot more. Former White Sox slugger Ron Kittle, Harry Caray's widow, Dutchie, and Faust will accept delivery of the memorabilia and dedicate the display. Harry Caray was the White Sox play-by-play announcer for 11 seasons, from 1971 to 1981. The shrine will include the "last-out bat" used by Houston's Orlando Palmeiro in Game 4 of the World Series that gave the Sox their first championship since 1917, and Paul Konerko's grand slam ball, which fan Chris Claeys caught during Game 2. Claeys immediately placed the ball in a secured vault at MB Financial Bank. It will arrive at Harry Caray's from the bank in an armored car surrounded by security guards. Claeys' Game 2 World Series ticket, a letter from Gov. Rod Blagojevich written to Claeys and other Sox memorabilia will be on display."

I'd trade Desmond Clark for at least half of the other starting TE's, if not more. I'm a Bears fan and all, but this is absurd.

cold reality

Damn do you guys like throwing down. Now for some actual numbers... 2005 final payroll ~ $75 million 2004 attendance- 1,930,537 2005 attendance (excluding playoffs)- 2,342,834 2004 avg ticket price- $22.71 FCI (cost for a family of 4 to go to the game done by Team Marketing)- $171.35 2005 avg ticket price- $25.89 (up 14%) FCI- $188.07 (up 9.8%) 2004 att/ 4 (family)= 482,634.25 x 2004 FCI= 82,699,378.7375 2005 att/ 4= 585,708.5 x 2005 FCI= 110,154,197.595 therefore $75 mill/ 82,699... should approximately equal x/ 110,154... where x= 2006 salary solve for x, x= $99,898,753.12 Again, this does not include the postseason and the ridiculous hike in merchandise sales. Gentlemen, some of you may hate to admit this but Andy the Clown could have been damn right on when he said the actual budget cap was $106 mil. Now that I've gotten that out, I'd like to reiterate the fact that I think trading a package including JC for Abreu(+?) at this time is unwise. We DO need some people in the bullpen after all. So unless we can add an impact arm without giving up the pieces for Abreu, then it just wouldn't work out. Could we trade BA for a BP arm? I don't think KW would do it. I'm just making the point that I don't think the budget is the most contraining issue here. The 2005 figures equate to an average attendance of 28,923 per game, or about 5,000 less per game than this board's "expected" average next season.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 23, 2006 -> 03:11 PM) Abreu's no-trade clause could come into effect in this situation. Also, the fact that even if the Sox were to look into trading him, $33 million over 2 years is a lot of money for a player. Is that written in the contract? I don't recall if it was or not... just that it had been rumored that Abreu would want that option picked up if he was to waive his no-trade. I've also read that he'd best buds with Ozzie, so that could help. I do agree that the 2008 season salary could be a big sticking point/ roadblock.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 23, 2006 -> 03:09 PM) Depending on trading players a year or 2 in advance to lower payroll is a very risky proposition. If these players fell flat on their faces, their giant contracts would be impossible to move. Then you get the double whammy. A bad team, that no one wants to pay to see, and a payroll you can't decrease unless you dump core players like Buerhle and Konerko which would only alienate the fan base, particularly the bandwagon jumpers who wouldn't hesitate to jump back off. You gotta take some risks if you want to win it all. We caught lightning in a bottle last year where a lot of things broke right for us on top of that great pitching.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 23, 2006 -> 02:51 PM) And there is a HUGE point. After this year, the odds are the revenue wont grow so much that we can afford to payback a deficit. Considering we just won our first world series title in 88 years, its safe to say that we shouldnt expect another one. Meaning that this year could very well be our most profitable in years. But that also means that eventually the revenue stream will go back down a bit. So next year will probably be one of our most profitable years ever in terms of revenue meaning that the FOLLOWING year (2007) is when the "re-investment" is due according to Forbes. If 2007 is when we'd take the bulk of the hit for an Abreu contract, it looks like it lines up directly with the year that we should be able to afford the most salary. (Be back later to continue this engaging discussion )

Gentlemen, you guys are so focused on ripping Steve and any semblance of an Abreu rumor apart, let's not forget that we'd be trading away AT LEAST Contreras who is owed ~$9. So at the VERY most we'd be adding, what $4 mil to next year's salary? It would be the following year that the real salary would be added. If we don't win it all again this year or at least get deep into the playoffs, we CAN trade away players if need be, correct? That's still an option, right? I say I'm leaning to just loading up this year for another run, if we don't make it we can shed some salary. All our players have reasonable contracts.