ptatc

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:56 PM) I think it is just fans. I think when you hear it from a team -- like the Astros -- it's BS posturing and isn't worth anything. The fans says such things and GMs parrot it when it serves their interest to do so. The industry knows. The Sox haven't received an acceptable offer ... yet. Rizzo got ripped after the Eaton trade and Hahn is dealing with the fallout of that -- nobody wants to be considered his next "victim" (and Q's lack of national reputation will almost insure that this happens). I agree. He's rarely truly dominant. And because of that he's often going to be considered the underdog in a post season mano a mano between #1s. But the guy rarely has a bad game too. It seems game after game of 7-IP, 2-ER, low whip, and a deceptive amount of Ks. And I think his numbers are going to get significantly stronger in AAAA, umm, I mean the National League. He shouldn't get a Sale return (although, again, the Pirates NEED Q while the Bosox didn't truly need Sale). But the difference is fairly minor, especially when you factor in his extra year of control. I hope you're right. i would like to see the Sox continue to build for the future. However, as I said before I think he could be leader of the rotation when the Sox are good again. i wouldn't be to disappointed if they keep him.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:50 PM) There IS an importance in the "leader of the rotation" part. Agreed. And the uncertainty about that, for example, is one significant reason Sale is more highly regarded than Q. That said, Q is top-20 starter in all of baseball material. Often, under many metrics, top 10-12. He has extreme value for anyone, especially with his contract, durability, mechanics, style of pitching, and unflappable makeup. But other than in direct #1 vs #1 style post-season match-ups, the is he a middle tier #1 or a stud #2 question means nothing to me. The #1 vs #1 playoff match-up thing is TBD. We'll see. I'd love the Pirates to advance and would love to see Q dominate. But if that was the sole measure of a pitcher's true worth, then Clayton Kershaw wouldn't be anybody's idea of a #1 would he, despite the near-unanimous belief that he's the best pitcher in baseball. i agree with everything you said. That is why this trade, or lack thereof, is a really interesting case. I'm firmly in the camp, that if the Sox don't get an outstanding prospect package offer, they should keep him. He may be worth more the the Sox than the market offers. Even the way it looks now he could be the leader of the rotation when the sox are good again.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:49 PM) I'm not sure we see Giolito in 2017, but I am confident that when we see him on the Sox it'll be a thing to behold. I agree. I think his floor is a good mid-rotation starter.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:41 PM) Agreed! The only time those designations mean anything is Opening Day and in the playoffs. Throughout the season, you match-up with the other team's starters based on whose number is called for that given day. Q is dissed regularly because he doesn't have eye-popping pure stuff. That said, his stuff is far better than most casual observers realize AND his results speak for themselves. By virtually every metric he is unquestionably a Top-20 starter in all of baseball. Given that, on many, many teams, he's going to be the statistically accomplished "best starter" on that staff. And he's been that way for 4 years now, pitching under an insanely below market contract, and with a track record that suggests absolutely minimal risk going forward (for a human being that does something than an arm isn't anatomically designed to do). Any sane GM (posturing aside and under the influence of truth serum) will look at Q as a Top 20 in baseball. Period. Calling him a #1 or #2 matters little, other than providing fodder for the talking heads. Is he a classic #1 in the way most people think of a #1. No, but who cares? In performance he certainly is. He looks like a #2 ... he performs like a middle of the pack #1. His off-the-chart dominant games are rare -- a couple of out and out gems each season. But his dog-games are every bit as rare too. And all of the extras he brings to a team have significant value aside. Love Q. Every GM would love him as a top performer on ANY staff in baseball. Who cares what fans think. Hahn knows his value. He's tradeable, if another GM will pay that value. Otherwise, you wait until someone does. And someone will. The problem is, I don't think it's just fans. I think others around the MLB have similar doubts which is why an offer acceptable to the Sox hasn't materialized. The lack of dominance i think plays a role in that perception.

QUOTE (flavum @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 12:34 PM) Interesting Manny Ramirez is at 34%, considering he failed tests after testing became a thing. I think he belongs based on being a great hitter--even though he'll probably not get in. My ballot would be: Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, McGriff, Mussina, Raines, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Schilling Everyone else fall short for me. I could clean this ballot up in one year. You have 4 "PED" guys and Raines with the cocaine stigma on your list. It will be interesting to see how the writers treat them. I think the only reason Raines hasn't made it is the cocaine issues.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:28 PM) He was overshadowed by Sale playing on a mediocre team. He was the Ben Zobrist of pitching. Guys get lost in the shuffle. Even here were people know more than the average, when there was talk about Zobrist, some thought he would make a good reserve. The guy put up 8.6, 3.8, 6.3 ,5.8, 5.0, 5.5 WAR seasons in a 6 year stretch. He was virtually unknown to be one of the best players in the game. When you thought of best players, he wouldn't come to mind, just like anyone who doesn't follow the White Sox doesn't really think of Jose Quintana when they think about the better pitchers in the game. Agreed. It's the classic scout versus numbers player as well. The numbers show he is one of the best. Scouts will wonder if he has the mental makeup and stuff to be the leader of the rotation.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:26 PM) True that, hommie. One more reason to keep rooting for Q, with or without the Sox. Happy holidays, by the way. i always like to root for the underdog or forgotten. Happy Holidays to you as well. Celebrate well!

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 11:14 AM) I too, am interested to see where Giolito falls on top prospect lists when they're updated. My guess is somewhere between 10-20, and I expect Lopez to be just behind him. I think Lopez still profiles as a starting pitcher, and the Sox must believe that too. As Jerksticks said, watch the highlights of his 11k game. Wow he looks nasty. I think Giolito will be fine. He needs some consistency. Coop is the right guy to work with him. I expect him up in June, and while he'll still have some lumps, I think he'll flash his ace upside. Here is to hoping his FB is up in the high 90s to start the year in AAA. If you watch highlights from him last year, he doesn't use his legs or core very much. Its all arm. I think the Sox will work with him on that. Personally, I think it's the other way around. He uses a little too much drop and drive to engage the legs. However, this also lowers all of the angles for a big guy and makes it more difficult to command the pitches. Other than that he has a good deal of the "classic" hard thrower mechanics.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:12 PM) I'm so tired of hearing that Quintana is a number 2. All the MLBN pundants were spewing that crap just now. I think you'll keep hearing it until he actually leads a rotation. Not that I agree but until he shows it. It's just not common for a guy to be an MiLB FA and perform the way he has. He has never had the hype in his career.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 12:16 PM) The Red Sox aren't trading for another starter so it's really all moot. yeah, they just traded one away to stay below the salary tax. the 4 they have should be enough. The questions would change if one goes down before the All-star break and they are playing well. not that I wish the misfortune of injury on anyone, although that very scenario does keep bread on the table for my family.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 11:57 AM) They tried to acquire Q at the deadline last year from all reports. You've underrated Quintana alot in this thread though, so its not surprising with your posts. I don't think I've underrated at all. I think he is a TOR pitcher and is more consistent than most in the league. almost every team would love to have him. In fact, if i were the Sox FO, I would have traded Sale before Q as well. But that's because Sale is better and would bring more on the open market. Quintana would bring a very good prospect package in any trade. I think I agreed in another post that he is a top 10 pitcher in the AL which I do think so. My only point is that he just isn't as good as Sale and wouldn't bring back as much in a trade.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 11:46 AM) Even still, he has an additional season of cheap control, which puts his value right on par with Sale. If the length of contract and money were equal, yes Sale is a better pitcher. But Quintana on a 4 year, $38 million contract is a steal for any team Not for the price that Sale brought. The team that trades for him is going to expect the production that makes the prospects worth the trade. He just won't bring back the prospects that Sale did. there is a reason that Boston wanted Sale not Quintana in the deal. Quintana is a very good valuable pitcher. regardless, of contract (it does drive his value up) he will not bring the prospects that Sale did and you are going to be disappointed if you expect that.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 11:33 AM) Quintana for four seasons is more valuable than 2 1/2 seasons of Andrew Miller, which received Frazier + Sheffield + two more prospects If they insist on keeping one or Frazier or Torres, I'd want Torres +++ and the rest must be very high quality Torres + Rutherford + Adams + Montgomery + Sands Minimum required = Two of Torres/Frazier/Rutherford + two more #10-30 organizational prospects I wasn't saying anything about that deal. My comment was is that he is not as good as sale thus you shouldn't expect the same haul the Sox got for Sale.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 09:54 AM) We can get depth and quality with a Quintana deal. I don't want one headliner plus a bunch of lottery tickets for 4 cheap seasons of Quintana. We must get a return like the Sale deal for him Torres + Frazier + Montgomery + Sands is a package I could see working Remember, Andrew Miller's 2 1/2 seasons netted the Yankees Frazier + Sheffield + two more prospects A Chapman three month rental netted the Yankees Torres + Warren + McKinney + Crawford Anything less than a Torres + Frazier ++ package would be us selling Quintana for less than he is worth. this will not happen. He is not the pitcher that Chris Sale is.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 19, 2016 -> 06:22 PM) I'm not suggesting war is the be all, end all to evaluate a player, but rather to illustrate how valuable he really is. I highly doubt a deal with New York gets done. I'm surprised we have not heard more Rockies rumors. They can't go into this season with their current pitching staff and expect to contend for the NFL west Don't think they have the size to compete with the Raiders My point was that i don't think the GM's in MLB value him that high thus the Sox will not get the return that value justifies and no trade will happen.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Dec 19, 2016 -> 05:56 PM) 4th best in AL =/= 4th best in baseball. He's still Top 10, though, and I doubt many would deny that. Probably.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 19, 2016 -> 04:37 PM) I actually disagree. Quintana posted the 4th best WAR in the American League. We wisely held out for an excellent return in exchange for Sale, why should we settle on Quintana? Judge's value is down in my opinion. He will be 25 years old this season and strikes out at a concerning rate. He struck out 44% of the time in 27 major league games. I might overlook this small sample size more if Judge were 20/21/22 years old, but at 25 years old it is more concerning. He will only ever be average at best defensively, likely regressing quickly due to his huge size. I don't like him as a fit. Wilkerman posted a .539 OPS in rookie ball. Yes, he is young for the level, but it shows how far he is away from sniffing the mlb level...if ever Most people in baseball realize that the abstract concept of WAR, while valuable, is not the only way to value a pitcher. Most also realize that Q while a very good pitcher, is not the 4th best in baseball. However, the White sox will stick to this point as well because they really only wanted to trade Sale not Q. Thus we will hear from the Fo that they didn't deal Q because they couldn't get value for him. IMHO.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 10:46 PM) And completely unnecessary. Doesn't change the fact that it exists and always will. There is a great deal of professional jealously when a player who hasn't proven anything in professional sports is making 5 times the amount of money as players who are in the sport. It's not as bad in baseball as the rookies have usually put time in the minors at least. These are usually the fun ones. It gets bad sometimes in football where the 1st round picks have the huge contracts with no time in professional sports.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 03:38 PM) Not ideal. I am all for the Sox getting him, but is there really any chance? Yankees, Boston will be able to sign him, and he will make Sale and Q seem pricey. The $20 million max posting fee won't scare anyone either. You would have to think that if the contract is going to be the same each team, he would go where he could make the most endorsement/personal appearance money.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 04:16 PM) We agree. They're professional baseball players. Real-world Professionals shouldn't be subject to hazing. All professional sports teams have hazing of one type or another. It's part of the culture and is usually very funny.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 03:08 PM) Kevin Millar is pretty much the resident goofball at MLBN but when he wants to get serious, he is interesting. He was talking about his free agency, first when he signed with Boston, and then when he signed with Baltimore. He said everything was OK when he hadn't signed by the holidays, but once the new year started panic starts setting in. He wound up signing in February, and was pretty nervous he wasn't going to have a home. I think when he signed with Boston he actually was close to going to Japan. That is pretty much his personality. When he played for the Kane county Cougars, he kept everybody laughing but was also one of the most intelligent and well rounded players. Florida would sent many of the non-English speaking players to the team and he would help them with English but in the Harold Ramis manner from "Stripes"

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 12:06 AM) you mean MLB? He's a helluva a competitor he just had the single most devastating injury to a pitcher...and he's being paid nothing. Minor League deal he can be cut at any time. I would put a rotator cuff injury as more devastating than a capsular repair, but the point is taken.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 12, 2016 -> 10:50 PM) Just that the odds of Eaton's body holding up until 2019-2021 are 50/50 at best. His borderline reckless type of game just leaves too many possibilities for injuries. We saw it already with Rowand and how quickly he broke down in his 30's. Shane Victorino, another example, although not as close as Aaron. He's a lot more multi-dimensional than Pods as well, because of his arm and RF defense...once Pods lost his stolen base aggressiveness, he lost 50% of his value. And Eaton's had a lot more pop to his game than most expected, simply looking at him physically. That said, when he got "homer happy," it took him away from his infield hit/BB OBP mode, which arguably was even more valuable to disrupting the opposition. I think his had a little more to do with the "better playing through chemistry" than anything else.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 02:58 AM) He traded Keith Foulke for Billy Koch too. Not sure what the point of that one was. Why not just trade him for prospects? He traded Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton too.

QUOTE (South Sider @ Dec 12, 2016 -> 04:32 PM) That the Dodgers would rather spend all that money on free agents and taxes actually disgusts me. They are so protective of their prospects that they'd rather pay millions in tax penalites? They don't need every single one of those prospects and I believed it would be more prudent to swap some unproven prospects for good veteran players. Whatever, screw them. Hope they finally miss out on the playoffs in 2017. They realize that most prospect don't pan out. The more they keep, the better chance they have of getting a cheap, viable MLB player. This may be how they off set the FA contracts down the road.