ptatc

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:08 AM) The Cubs are the opposite of us. They have two pitchers they bought and a team loaded with young talent at key positions. We have a garbage team we bought and home grown pitchers. The problem is our team sucks and we would be better off being bad and drafting better talent. There is no logic that states this current method is working and there's really no good way to keep Sale and Q and magically turn our team into contenders. Time to wake up. Attendance and interest is at an all-time low. There's no excuse not to start over. sure it does. Do you think the sox would be in contention if Abreu was hitting his norms and Petricka and Putnam were pitching to their norms? Also, I didn't say to keep Sale and Quintana, I said you need to keep one. They need the guy at the top. I'm all for trading one, preferably quintana.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:03 AM) I think the FO is trying to replicate the Sale strategy. The fact that you were fooled didn't make this team a contender. Sorry. The fact that you couldn't look at it logically doesn't matter either.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:01 AM) Like the Astros and the Cubs. They seem awfully sorry. The cubs for all of their young players still depend on two veterans for success, Arrieta and Lester. One was a pure luck minor deal, the other a significant FA signing of well over 100 million dollars. why depend on luck or over spending when the Sox currently have that piece?

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:52 AM) They haven't been a realistic World Series contender since Sale and Q have put on a White Sox uniform, so... i think they were. The players have all just had career norm or down years all together. The only player playing above their norm is Melky. Any team that wins the world series needs to have a few players having career years and very few below thier career averages. I liked the plan with adding frazier and Lawrie among others. With their pitching it should have been a really good team. Unfortunately, Abreu tanked, they lost two bullpen pieces to injury and no one on the offense is having that career year. A good plan that didn't work. I have no problem with selling but they need to keep that one piece that is the most difficult to find....The Ace.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:56 AM) Then we can always head to the FA market or the trade market to find our ace, if we do get to this "worst case scenario" point Spending 200 million for 5 years for an ace is not the way to have success. More often than not it doesn't work out. I would rather keep the one they have.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:50 AM) What's the point of keeping Sale if Q, DRob, etc are traded? That team obviously wouldn't be competitive, and attendance would crater whenever Sale isn't pitching. If he was a position player, it might be different, but he only plays every 5 days anyway. He's the face of the franchise, but why keep a legit ace on a 65 win team? It really makes no sense. Because finding top of the rotation guys are really hard to find. There is a reason that these teams in contention are willing to trade a "king's ransom" for Sale, because he is a rare pitcher and nearly impossible to find. The sox have one already. The key is to have a discussion with him and see if he is willing to be on a bad team for a few more years and be the leader for a bunch of kids.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:41 AM) I'm still confident in Rodon to become a dominant pitcher in time. Fulmer, I haven't seen enough of, but you never know. If you couple in the prospects we'd get from these trades (maybe Urias, De Leon, etc.) and the one we draft and likely fast track, 3-4 years isn't that crazy. Even if rodon does become 1 or 2, there is a great deal of "hope" there. Anyone they draft will take at least 4 years to become a 1 or 2 in the MLB, unless you count on drafting HOF players every year like Sale. If they don't keep one top of the rotation starters, I don't think they will not be a realistic World Series contender for at least 5 years.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:33 AM) Good. I don't want a realistic shot for years. Stock up on first round picks for a few years, draft a good starter, develop Rodon/Fulmer and the starting prospects we get in all these trades, and we'll be fine. I'm more than fine to wait until 2019 or 2020 to be legitimate contenders. I can endure a few seasons of losing and development for the potential reward. It's a hell of a lot better than constant "going for it" seasons that end up with a team that can't even reach .500. That's only 3 years away. The sox will be looking at far longer than that with no top of the rotation starters. Unless you think rodon and Fulmer are 1 and 2 starters. I'm not convinced of that.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:27 AM) I agree. Trading from strengths partially to fill a couple holes only weakens your strengths, thus keeping you in mediocrity. And who knows if filling the holes at various positions with the players we get in these potential trades will even work? I'm down for rebuilding, but let's do it the right way. Keep Anderson, Rodon, Fulmer, and maybe Eaton, but everyone else should be up for grabs if the right package comes along. It's a ridiculously good year to be a seller, market-wise, and we'd be foolish to not take advantage. In this scenario the Sox have no number 1 or number 2 starter. This team will have no realistic shot for years. They are going to be really, really bad.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:13 AM) This is loose conjecture and my own analysis. Take it for what you want. I really can't elaborate on more than I am saying. I don't think the Sox will trade Sale. I am not ruling it out, but I'd be pretty much shocked. I don't seem them moving Frazier/Melky/Lawrie but that's more of a guess. The guys that I expect them to have deep conversations about are Quintana/Robertson/Duke. Dodgers, Rangers and Red Sox are the teams to watch. I think the Sox think if they can get a return from Quintana/Robertson that is largely comprised of close to MLB ready talent, then they will make the leap. Shields could be moved obviously but I don't have any reason to think anything specific. Essentially, if they move Q/Robertson/Duke they'll go into the offseason with holes at C/CF/DH and then they'll need a decent starter/reliever as well as some depth adds. They'll have the returns from those guys hopefully filling three of those holes and they'll have boatload of money off the books with LaRoche/Robertson/Q/Jackson/Latos/Rollins/Avila/Navarro leaving. Before arb raises, that's almost 50M off the books (rough mental math). This seems like the best bet. Hopefully, they should get at least 1 or 2 MLB ready players in the positions who mentioned. This will 2-3 holes to fill over the next year or two.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 09:02 PM) Yea not so much. Yet another IL govenor unable to relate to the vast majority of people within this state and completely incapable of governing effectively. He's in way over his head right now and will continue to be embarrassed over the next two years, as if the first two weren't enough already. I'm embarrassed I voted for this clown. This applies to every politician at the Federal level and most at the state level.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:06 AM) SOrry, to be clear, I don't think we necessarily need to trade both. In some sense, opening up both may devalue them, in opening up supply of great cost-controlled pitchers. I love Q, he is the best thing. But, this is a case where we may be wise to sell high as a kite on our best buy low piece of all time. We unfortunately just didn't time him right. I agree. i'm just worried about the scenario where others want to "SELL EVERYBODY" i don't think that would turn out well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 01:38 PM) Ptatc, do you come into this thread? Is this like a career damaging or career threatening issue? We've heard so much about how terrible back surgery is, is this the end of Kershaw's incredible run? From what i can tell, the team really can't figure out what the issue is. He is having back pain but no radiating symptoms, which is the typical indicator for a significant disc issue. surgery is very questionable without the radiating symptoms. The conservative approach is usually recommended in this scenario. However with a pitcher, there is a great deal of stress on the spine. so, they are really unsure how to progress with the treatment.

QUOTE (shipps @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:59 AM) The only thing that sticks with me that I cant shake is that Sale is a potential HOF one day and that doesnt usually work out well for teams that trade those guys away in the middle of their prime years. Quintana on the other hand is one hell of a pitcher but not a HOF player and could get us a really good haul in his own right. Makes a lot more sense to trade Q. It will still hurt to see him leave but not to the magnitude of Sale and we should still get an awesome return. I agree with this.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:52 AM) I will be bummed, because that means we'll continue to have a paper thin team with no depth which is the opposite of what we should be trying to achieve by selling. I like having sale as a pitcher, it's great, but the overall sox experience is just constant hope and disappointment that they can make a run. And its irrational because they aren't talented. The warnings of Matt Davidson and Avi Garcia is you can't trade for 1 prospect and assume he makes it, like Hahn did. We need jump shot to the arm, and with the LatAm kids finally coming stateside, 2 straight solid drafts, and an infusion of talent from trades, and a large drop in payroll, we could then go into 2018 with lots of young talent and payroll flexibility to try and add hte home run. The big issue with trading Sale AND Quintana is that it makes it really difficult to compete for the world series for the foreseeable future. Teams needs at least 2 top of the rotation starters to have a good shot at winning the World series. If not they could get lucky but will more or less not have that realistic chance. The cubs for all the hype are relying on a veteran acquired in a minor deal, who decided to become one of the best pitchers in baseball later in his career.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 10:27 PM) Just seems like a long shot to become a legit prospect. Career .214 hitter who strikes out a ton with minimal in-game power. July 2nd guys are always a crapshoot, and it seems he might have been more workout warrior than anything else. I agree but wait until he is at least legal drinking age before you declare him bad. He can drink away your criticism then.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 08:54 PM) So Adolfo just isn't good, is he? Some bad offense all around http://mlbfarm.com/index.php?team=CWS Now, you're picking on 19 year old kids?

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 08:12 PM) Grounding into double plays are not characteristic of bad baseball players. Quite the opposite. Great players GIDP more than anyone else. It's not a good thing to complain about. All time leaders in GIDP Just slow ones.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 08:26 PM) 2019 could look something like this: CF - Benitendi RF - Eaton 2B - Moncada C - Lucroy DH - Collins 1B - Abreu 3B - Devers SS - Anderson LF - Pederson Rotation Fernandez Urias Rodon Fulmer Shields Bullpen Burdi Jones Other s*** yet to be determined Trade Q to LAD for Urias and Joc Pederson Trade Sale to Boston for Benitendi, Moncada, Devers, and 2 lower level prospects. Trade Fraizer, Melky, Robertson, Duke, Lawrie, etc for lower level prospects - a lot of pieces that will make up a bullpen. 2018 - Sign Lucroy 2019 - Sign Jose Fernandez You are really counting on multiple rookies to make an impact all at the same time. That usually doesn't work out well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 01:38 PM) Ptatc, do you come into this thread? Is this like a career damaging or career threatening issue? We've heard so much about how terrible back surgery is, is this the end of Kershaw's incredible run? I haven't looked into the specifics of what is going on. Let me do a little asking around.

QUOTE (dasox24 @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 09:27 PM) I just spent 4 days in Boulder, Colorado. I have been to Colorado several times in the winter, but never in the summer before. It was beautiful this time of year. Went on some great hikes, golfed, went fly fishing, and rock climbing. Can't wait to get back. On the golf note, the altitude definitely adds distance to your game. It was actually a detriment because it took me several holes to figure it out. I kept hitting the ball further than intended, particularly with my low irons and wedges. I'm going to Ft. collins in two weeks. Colorado is great anytime of the year.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 20, 2016 -> 08:28 PM) Oregon owns especially the bend area, may move there some day. I agree. Oregon or Colorado for me within 10-12 years.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 03:23 PM) He Gone: Very good post. Congrats to you. There is no easy solution I'm afraid to the Sox numerous issues. Maybe the simplest one is that they desperately need new ownership to get out of this rut of mediocrity. A new owner will bring in their own people and hopefully they'll be better at their jobs then the current group (how can they be worse?) Mark Never win a World Series? There are many executives that fall into that category.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 10:43 PM) Do the Bulls operate under a sweetheart lease deal, and have they since the United Center came into being, such that Reinsdorf enjoys the trappings of all of the revenues of that stadium but little to none of the expenses? Because that's what your hero Mr. Reinsdorf unscrupulously secured for himself with the deal with the state back in '88 for the Sox' stadium, and from which he's profited IMMENSELY over the past 25 years. Massive revenue that comes from a Major League Baseball stadium, but no expense. Pure profit for 25 years now. That's the primary reason Reinsdorf is a billionaire today. You can choose to ignore that all you want, but that's the facts, Jack. It's as simple as that. The Sox also don't get any revenue from other events at the stadium such as concerts. Teams that own the stadium generate a great deal of revenue from these activities. JR is a "billionaire" due to his property businesses currently and from long before he bought in to the Sox as a minority shareholder. He hasn't owned much of the Sox until very recently and it still isn't known how much of it he owns.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 08:32 AM) Sure, but you have to make the playoffs first. I don't know if it helps to make your MLB roster worse in the process. It's a give and take. how much worse can they make the offense and still get in the playoffs while acquiring the pitching to win in the playoffs. They currently do not have the pitching.