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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 11:21 AM) This kid is supposed to be the next big thing, 16 years old out of Cuba. Ben Badler ‏@BenBadler 2h2 hours ago Here's a new highlight video of Cuban OF Lazaro Armenteros, who has his first showcase on Friday: http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...ighlight-video/ … Beating those choppers to third and short was impressive. You would think the opposing outfielders would have learned to play a little deeper when he was up.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 11:06 AM) He could. So could Avi. So could Laroche But that's no better than 50/50. But look at the sox run differential from last year - 72 phytho wins. If anything, the win total exceeded the sum of the parts. A lot would have to improve for this team as is to contend. You cant' trade controllable young talent like they did for a wish and a hope in Melky Cabrera (aging with a history of PED use) and a couple of others. I think cabrera has a better track record to improve than Garcia. cabrarea is 31, I wouldn't call that aging. Laroche you could at 36 you could. They have their young talent for 4 years at least. Don't make stupid decisions now that could limit the future success.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:57 AM) Not improving the 0 WAR LF and RF makes the Frazier trade absolute madness. This is where hero-worshiping comes in. Frazier's here, not because the Sox will win, but to have a home run hitter to watch. Might as well get full hero value and let him participate in home run derby this year, if that's the plan. Maybe he is just better than what they had last year. By your comment, I assume you believe that Cabrera has no chance to improve this year?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:55 AM) The way I look at it is that the WAR side of it bakes in the penalty. Even with the DH penalty knocking a win and a half off of every season, he still comes out looking like he belongs. So to me, that means his offense was superlative enough to put him in. This will be the question that the voters need to answer. I agree with you but so far the voters don't seem to like the "DH mostly" player. I look at it like Ozzie Smith. It took the voters longer than it should have to let him in because he was seen as a "defense only" player for years.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:08 AM) I think it just goes to show how powerful PEDs are. They can take a mediocre player in Sosa and turn him into a would be HOFer or take a HOFer in Bonds and suddenly make him better than Ted Williams starting at age 36. I really think, for the most part, that the HOFers from that era are generally clean. That is why Bonds's numbers stand out so much. It is typically the mediocre to average players that turn to PEDs and make them look much better than they already are. It is when PEDs are given to the best of the best like Bonds or Clemens that it just turns into a joke. Look at the last few years of HOF inductees and soon to be inductees that played through the steroid era. There has not been an ounce of suspicion surrounding these guys. Thome Griffey Smoltz Martinez Johnson Thomas Maddux Glavine Larkin Alomar Ripken Gwynn Can you imagine the numbers those guys would have put up if they used PEDs? This is what always made me laugh. The early 2000's diamondbacks are the ones that stick in my mind. Guys like Jay Bell, Steve finley and Luis Guitierrez ( I think that was his name) hitting nearly 40 HR when in other years they didn't hit 20.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:27 AM) I do agree with this. '17 could have Fulmer too. But we are win-now in the sense that we ...aren't ....win-later. If that were the case we'd still have all those young guys we just traded away. The Sale/Abreu window necessitates that. But all they did was make the team better without giving up much. They do not need to be in win now mode if they determine the contract isn't worth it. That is how they get stuck in average to below average teams. sign the players ONLY if they contract and value make sense. Don't go way over their determined value just because it's a need this year. They made their decision with Gordon that a 4th year was too much. They have a value on Cepedes and they need to stick to it. If he signs good, if not move on to the next option that will make the team better but not sacrifice the future.

QUOTE (Sockin @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:26 AM) Because you only have two years of Todd Frazier and the FA class next year is awful. That is 2 years of Frazier not just one, after which Trey M. may be ready. May be the move the following year is a trade for a money player not a FA. There are many options if the price becomes to big especially for an inconsistent player like Cespedes.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:20 AM) But it's a win-now year. The draft pick could cause his average annual salary to go down too (and it's not our best pick either) Why? It isn't a win now year. If anything, the sox get Danks and LaRoche off the books next year so they will have more salary room. This could be the building year for following year. It could be a win now year but it doesn't need to be if the price becomes outrageous.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 09:35 AM) Before Bonds got on the steroids, Frank Thomas was a better hitter. Through their age 32 season (the last season before Frank started a seemingly never ending string of injuries and the end of what is normally considered 'prime' for a player) Bonds - .289/.408/.551, 374 HRs, 1094 RBIs, 359 2Bs, 1227 BBs, 958 Ks in 7403 PAs Thomas - .321/.440/.579, 344 HRs, 1183 RBIs, 361 2Bs, 1188 BBs, 835 Ks in 6799 PAs If Thomas had the same number of PAs he would have had 375 HRs, 1288 RBIs, 393 2Bs, 1294 BBs, 909 Ks So Frank had a higher average, higher OBP, higher SLG, higher HR rate, higher RBI rate, higher 2B rate, higher walk rate and lower strikeout rate. How was prime, pre-steroid Bonds a better hitter than prime Frank Thomas again? Factoring the elite defense bonds provided in LF as well as stolen bases and base running and I think they are both HOF caliber players. Thomas was the better pure hitter.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 09:35 AM) If we get him, great. If not, easy to live with not paying him 100 million dollars based off of a career year at 30 This is my thought. Do the sox really want to tie up that much money in such an inconsistent performer? This could be a contract that limits whatthey can do in the future. People on this board complain about cabrera and Laroche and their deals are very short. YO has the possibility of become even more hated than Dunn.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 09:21 AM) Fair enough, but where would you pick them in the AL Central as of today? Do they have to go "all in" every year? The team will be continue to get better each year. Maybe sign Austin Jackson for two years then sign Cain from the Royals when he is a FA? I like him better than Gordon.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 08:07 AM) Yes but his numbers and when he put up those numbers defy aging. If we are all worried about the White Sox giving a soon to be 32 year old a 4 year contract, look at Edgar Martinez. He was about to hit 6 peak seasons. I don't think humans or training regimes have devolved since that time. It has to be something. Whether it's steroids or greenies or corking bats, there has to be something or why don't guys do that anymore? Edgar Martinez's aging is more similar to Bonds and Clemens than just about any player. I agree, its a personal call. However if you go by numbers al8ne being the judge of use do you need to throw Nolan Ryan out as he did performed well into his 40's. I would not hold him out based on zero evidence even rumors that he used PED. Plus as I said if you saw him at the time there was no indication that he did.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 07:33 AM) I wouldn't hold Edgar being a DH against him. It has been a position for over 40 years. And it isn't a position a lot of guys have been able to excel. Adam LaRoche isn't the first guy to struggle DHing. Voters need to deal with it. I do think, if you are going to hold guys out of the HOF on suspicion of PED use, however, he has to be on that list. You have to suspect based on the numbers. I think if you saw him you would change your mind. Its nit to say that he positively didn't but he wouldn't have been high on the list of suspects.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 11:50 PM) Yeah but look at those numbers. In 1995, Martinez was a 7.0 WAR DH! Jesus Christ. OBP of .470. How do you even slug .628 while only hitting 29 homers? 52 doubles is how, lol. I get that the DH can be a penalty, but that guy was MASHING on an otherwordly level for a pretty sustained amount of time. I mean, if the DH penalty knocks those numbers down THAT much, then I think you'd have to make an argument that no relief pitcher should ever be considered for the HOF under any circumstances. I don't think anyone will argue that Mariano Rivera shouldn't be in, yet Edgar Martinez was substantially more productive than Rivera. Martinez was NINETEEN WAR better than Ortiz currently is, despite playing in over 800 fewer games. I apologize for saying Ortiz was better at peak -- I didn't have the numbers in front of me. Ok. He was a better hitter but does the fact that he couldn't play defense make him a better player? I understand your point. Some will look at more than hitying and say he wasn't a baseball player just a hitter, like some will say kickers aren't really football players. Personally I wouldn't vote for eitherl

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 10:55 PM) It's a HOF without some of the best players to ever play the game. It's a joke. Only those who cheated the game. They do not deserrve the fame.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 03:46 PM) Oh I wasn't talking about PEDs at all. I think I'd agree that peak Ortiz was a bit better in relation to his peers than Martinez was, but Martinez's peers were so much better at the time that it feels like splitting hairs. I'm not willing to think of Edgar as a lesser player simply because he peaked in the same years as Frank Thomas. Martinez is an interesting case with being primarily a DH. That's more the issue. If Thomas was the only one between him and the MVP, he should have finished higher in the voting. If a player sucks so bad defense that he was a DH even at a young age is he one of the best players of a time?

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) Whether testing was in place or not, steroids were banned for the vast majority of these guys' careers. They should not get a pass just because were not testing procedures in place especially when they would have some say in the procedures to due the collective bargaining agreement. Being innocent is not the same as not getting caught. This is my view as well but I can understand the opposite point of view.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) Yeah, it will be BS if Ortiz gets in, and the others don't. I do want to see consistency. This is where it's gets tricky. If someone gets caught, admits it and does his suspension should he be looked at differently? Most of these question marks are due to the question marks of the testing and procedures during their time. If the MLB had the testing in place it does today Bonds, McGwire, Sosa would not have been able to do what they did. Should they be penalized because the league and the union did not have the testing in place?

QUOTE (flavum @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 10:14 AM) Bowel movement. Rapid Eye Movement with the no real news in weeks.

QUOTE (Frank_Thomas35 @ Jan 4, 2016 -> 09:51 PM) Updates from Rabbit: Yup. Not sure they get their "first choice" but they're happy w/ the way "their" market has developed to this point. @georgyjj09 @HHS1DPU teams are leaving the players out to dry because there are no aggressors forcing their hand. Market will move in tim @georgyjj09 @HHS1DPU basically supply and demand but when once an OF signs teams will start to show their hands. Until then, they wait eorgyjj09 @HHS1DPU I've heard they've moved hardest after Gordon. That's all things considered: $, compensation, fit, years, profile, etc. 7:40 PM - 4 Jan 2016 @HHS1DPU he's trying to get the best deal for himself. KC has been active with other outfielders though. Isn't this the time when posters are supposed to start complaining "if he doesn't want to come here, the sox shouldn't give him the deal."

QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 4, 2016 -> 02:16 PM) Has Pete Rose failed to make money in the autograph market? I think that is a very marginal consideration. Most of the people that care about autographs will soon die, right? Who are they? If there is some lucrative selfie market come find me. It's still a huge market including appearances. It kept him out of any broadcasting/MLB events for a long time. Even if it's not, anyway to keep them from benefiting from their playing/coaching career is fine by me. They should not be placed in any position of excellence.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 4, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) Well said. I feel the same way about Pete Rose. Show him off in the Hall, this is the guy who got more hits than anyone else in MLB history. And he's also a lying asshole who couldn't stop betting on the sport. Both things are huge parts of baseball's history. The issue is do you think these players should have all of the monetary gains from getting into the HOF? Attaching HOF to the autographs and personal appearances is a real money maker. Just my opinion but if you cheated, you don't get paid. It's not like people don't know who Pete Rose is. He is probably more famous because of the constant scandal. However, I'm keeping him out of the place that honors the best players of the game.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2016 -> 11:42 AM) ANd Danks's xFIP has gone up every year since his injury. Also worth noting - JA Happ only pitched 92 innings in 2013, because he got hit in the head by a line drive and suffered a skull fracture. So unless "avoiding head impacts" is a skill you'd like to explain why Danks has that Happ does not, I think we can call a portion of that innings difference "bad luck". Other factors to look at are that Danks has been increasing his innings each each since the injury so building strength and fatigue at the throughout the season is a factor in Danks' favor. My favroite stat for pitchers is SIERA. I think it is the best way to isolate the pitcher's performance. Not perfect but makes the most logical sense in the manner in which it's calculated. The average for the last 3 years for Happ: 4.21, for Danks: 4.48. I don't know if they've done an analysis for significant difference but it doesn't seem that it's that significant of a difference.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2016 -> 09:41 AM) I always ask this one. Where is your evidence that Barry Bonds's first use of steroids was in 1998? Isn't that just as anecdotal as everything else? Barry Bonds was clearly an athletic freak in the 1980s and 1990s, but there are plenty of steroids that don't make you explode into the muscle-bound freak he became. There's a supposed quote from him while having dinner with Ken Griffey Jr. in 1998 where he says he's going to "start using some hard-core stuff", why is "well he's clearly experienced with softer-core stuff" not an entirely plausible conclusion? It's not like steroids weren't available to guys in high school and college in the 1980s and it's not like every steroid slows you down and takes away athletic ability in exchange for strength. If I put out a book saying he was juicing in the mid 80s, doesn't that have exactly as much credibility as saying he was HOF worthy before he was juicing? It is entirely possible. However, for the most part people who are experienced with working with the human body and even people you just see them on a daily basis can see the difference. Even if you take it for "endurance" purposes ie, cycling , the body changes with enough dosage to make a performance enhancement. The "softer-core stuff" wouldn't have made much of a performance enhancement. There was a drastic change in his body in 1998.

QUOTE (staxx @ Jan 2, 2016 -> 04:12 PM) I feel like teams have placed a much higher premium on pitching. Possibly, teams feel that they can home-grow their own hitting talent and use the FA market to bolster pitching, thus allocating the resources toward that. Also, many of the hitters on the FA market have an asking price vs actual value this year due to the fact that there aren't any Greinke or Price caliber hitters ala Harper/McCutch in 18. (Upton/Heyward/Cespy considered tier 1). Teams simply may not see it worth giving these specific players high contracts. Pitching wins in the playoffs.