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QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 02:53 PM) Ventura stated when he retired it was because of the pain in his ankle and the weakness of that leg. It got to the point, as we have stated, that he had to walk with a cane until his additional surgery in 2005. He put up some decent power numbers later in his career but that was about it. He didn't hit higher than .250 after age 31. During his prime he was absolutely one of the best in the game and that's not really debatable. For his entire career he averaged 4.5 fWAR per season and before 2000 he averaged 5.3 fWAR. Do you know how many position players had a 5.3 fWAR season last year, just 21. If you are a top 20 player in baseball for a single year you are one hell of a player. If you are a top 20 player in baseball for a decade you deserve to be in the HOF discussion. I realize the part about the retirement. However, he also could have had the surgery earlier and then returned to baseball. He chose just to ride it out. You don't really see him limping or using a cane now. The surgery cleaned everything out. It is never going to be perfect but it would have extended his career but he would have had to miss a significant part of a season to do it. Maybe it was because of him playing with Frank Thomas but I just didn't see him as one of the best hitters in baseball. A very good hitter but not one of the best. Maybe the abundance of PED performances jaded it as well. You mentioned that only 21 players had a 5.3 fWAR season last year that would have made him a top 21 hitter, I don't consider a top 21 hitter in a given year a HOF caliber player. HOF should be in the top 10 at least over a long period of time. How many of the players in his era had that type of fWAR? I'm sure it is more than now. That would put him in the top 30 range. I just don't see that as one of the best players of all time and HOF worthy. Just my opinion but I don't see it.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 7, 2015 -> 05:15 PM) I think what really hurts him is that he was rarely the best player on his team (those Expos teams were loaded) and he never really lead the league in any major category. For whatever reason, he was often overshadowed. He is statistically the 6th best left fielder to play the game. That alone says...sure fire HOF'er. I'm not a fan of people using this as a reason for the HOF. It's the hall of fame for the best players not the best left fielders or best leadoff men or best third baseman. I happen to agree that he belongs in based on being a great player not necessarily ranked by position.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 7, 2015 -> 04:20 PM) I would just about bet that there is a certain percentage of voters that won't vote for him because of the whole cocaine thing. Whether that's a significant percentage or not is anybody's guess. I don't think it's just the cocaine, it's the fact that he admitted he changed his game and the way he played due to it. The were stories of him not sliding properly and getting caught stealing because he wanted to protect the vial in his pocket. He took the stuff in the middle of games. I think alot of voters hold this against him.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 10:14 PM) If you choose not to be insulted by hearing or reading stories of Jerry Reinsdorf's asserted benevolence because he approved that last additional "expenditure" for Cabrera's contract, which pushed the team payroll just over the $100 million mark, you go right ahead. That's just barely getting the team to the MLB team average for payroll, and therefore I refuse to fall prey to the team's propaganda and talking points that they're somehow going out on a limb on all of this recent spending. Meanwhile, the reigning division champs continue to spend almost 50% more than the Sox. I find that disparity unacceptable, that's all I'm saying. The sox attendance has been awful in the 2000's. They have been in the bottom 1/3 or 1/4 almost every year. They were in the top half once in 2006 after they won the world series and that was just barely at 15. All teams share in the TV and internet revenue. The teams all negotiate their own local broadcast rights. The sox are always substantially lower than the cubs. Thus the teams know all of their revenue prior to the season except one variable: attendance and the associated income ie. parking drink sales etc. JR has always said that he will not lose money for the Board. What business would? Thus they can guess about how much they can budget to player salary pretty closely except for attendance. Now given the Sox fans history on not coming to the games, would you go out a limb and really raise the player salary budget? history shows the Sox need to win with a moderate payroll, so they just need to have Hahn know what he is doing. Sox fans will not support a high budget. The other option is to hope that when JR's kids sell the team a guy like Mark Cuban who doesn't need to care about money buys the team. I know baseball owners won't approve him but that type of person. Maybe George Lucas as in retirement he seems to be getting more involved in Chicago, although his primary sports fandom revolves around racing.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 10:34 PM) Just out of curiosity, how do you know that? Advertising money, tv ratings, fan attendance, team logo sales. All of which can be found in Forbes and is usually about 2/3 Cubs.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 03:43 PM) Sounds, then, like the Sox are operating at quite a competitive disadvantage, which really shouldn't be the case for a team playing in a large market. There is no competitive disadvantage other than they have a lower share of a large market. Many other teams employ the same type of board structure. There are some exceptions, such as the Cubs and Detriot. But that is how a business works. The most important thing they could do is gain a larger share of the market from the cubs. I'm sure they are working on it. This was the big failing of the JR regime. The tried to do the sportsvision network similar to the Yankees but they were too new to the town and didn't realize how bad it would turn out. They didn't have the same dominance that the Yankees did and many fans turned to watch the cubs free.

QUOTE (MAX @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 02:22 PM) He did a lot of good. But he was a mediocre player and manager overall. I respect your opinion but I disagree. It's just a matter of opinion on what you think is important to the franchise. I don't think being one of the winningist mangers with the only modern era world series title is mediocre for the team. He is one of the best they've ever had. That coupled with being an outstanding shortstop for over a decade is an important figure for the team. I won't complain if it doesn't happen but I think he is worthy of consideration.

QUOTE (MAX @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 02:13 PM) He is also one of the worst long term hitters in baseball history. But a very good defensive shortstop at a time when that was a premium. Medically speaking he was also very important. Up until his injury with the collision with Raines, we tried to do an ACL reconstruction as soon as possible after the injury. His case was one of the first high profile ones where they waitined for the swelling to go down and regain the range first, then did the surgery. It was somewhat controversial the time.

QUOTE (MAX @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 02:09 PM) You are ignoring that as a manager he was completely out for himself in the end. He did not give a flying f*** about the white sox. Yes, but was all on him? i'm looking at the whole career not just a couple of years. You can look at the few, if you wish. I'm partially jaded in that he was a fun person the few times I had the chance to hang out with him and most everyone likes him as a person. Everyone can have their own opinion, I just happen to think that he did an awful lot for this team and was a key component in the success of the team for a number of years.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 12:59 PM) How many years is the question. He was done playing 3B at 34 years old. He was playing in pain, and hitting with a bad ankle has to have an effect. If he had 5 more years of his 1990's production, he is probably a HOFer. Whether the injury caused him to have 1 less or 5 less, we will never know, but the year after he retired, he didn't want to get out of bed his ankle bothered him so much. Possible, but he had very productive years after the injury so I don't think it effected his play at the time. He had surgery to clean up the ankle once he decided to retire. He could have done this earlier and returned to baseball but I think he knew it was coming to an end and waited. There is no way to know for sure but I don't think his numbers would have continued to increase and while he was very good there was only one year that he would have been considered one of the best and it was post injury. From my experience with this type of injury, I just don't think it really effected his play much, other than maybe shortening the career.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 09:30 AM) Maybe, but given the presence of Bonifacio, Sanchez and Saladino on there, I would think L Garcia is a more likely candidate in this case. Wilkins is a real possibility too, but I bet he'd get claimed and that leaves the Sox with Dan Black as their emergency 1B/DH (not a great position to be in). LGarcia is the one least valuable to the team and he's unlikely to be claimed. I would think the Sox would keep him around for his versatility. He is an adequate 25th guy who can play anywhere.I don't see that as a case in any of the others. I'm sure there are others in the system who cannot do anything at the MLB level. Garcia brings adequate defense all over the field. Edit: My point was they would keep him in the minors. With the signing, they don't need him in the MLB.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 01:03 PM) If the Detroit Tigers who play in a much smaller market can feature a $163 million payroll, then there is no way I can accept the fact that a $150 million payroll is not "realistic" for the "Chicago" White Sox. No way! They have a single owner in a single market. The Sox have a board of directors to which JR is responsible and they have the lesser share of a market with 2 teams. Illitch can do whatever he wants with the team. It's his. JR does not have this luxury. JR has said repeatedly that he will not spend the Sox into the red. His ownership groups for the Bulls and Sox are different. He cannot steal money from his Bulls group and give it to the Sox group. While he owns more of the a great deal more of the Bulls than the Sox, they are still different groups.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Jan 5, 2015 -> 10:39 AM) It was bad officiating, but I don't think it was any conspiracy to throw the game or anything like that. All sports suffer from poor officiating. NFL probably more than the others, but it is also the fastest moving with the most players on the field at one time. This wasn't poor officiating. This was blatantly changing a correct call and then blatantly not calling an obvious one (Bryant on the field yelling at a ref with his helmet off). This isn't a close missed call at a base in baseball. It's not the dropped third strike on AJP when the umpires view is blocked. This was right in front of the referee, literally. A player who is not supposed to be on the field, let alone with his helmet off is in front of the ref.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 3, 2015 -> 02:18 PM) I think it affected the last few years of his career. He was using a cane a year after he retired before getting some more surgery.he was pretty much done at 3B at 34. His doctor called it post traumatic arthritis. I don't think it really effected his game much. Again, it really didn't hamper what he did well, hit and hit for power. His strength on defense really wasn't his range. It may have shortened his career. But prior to the injury he was very good and not a HOF player. I don't think the injury changed that other than a couple of years in length.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 4, 2015 -> 06:59 PM) Seeing all my friends in michigan b**** and cry about this game is totally worth putting up with Dallas winning. They have every reason to complain. That was awful. However, I agree, it's fun listening to them cry about it.

Greedy NFL screwed the Lions.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 3, 2015 -> 08:24 AM) Had Ventura not screwed his leg up in '97, he may have wound up with a plaque in Cooperstown. So yes he was a better player than Ozzie. Even if you reserve number retirement for the best of the best in MLB history, not just Sox history, Thomas still gets his retired. He is one of the top 20 or so greatest offensive forces to ever play the game. That injury really didn't effect him much. He lost a littler range in his ankle but he wasn't a speed guy so it didn't effect his play other than the time he lost. Ozzie was a very good player for the Sox. The defense he played at short was very good. He wasn't an offensive star but at that time the team didn't need it from him. I would retire his jersey for all of the contributions to the Sox as both a player and manager. He was well above .500 and was top 5 or so in all time wins for the Sox as well as the only modern day World Series winner.

Shooting deer in Mississippi for the next 5 days.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 23, 2014 -> 05:40 PM) The NFL could pay him whatever. It comes down to if the 4 years he spent at Michigan chasing a title trumps the however many years he spent in the NFL chasing the ring. Michingan would be smart to hire a good coach like him, especially since he's from Ohio, they generally have decent luck with that. It really comes down to if he wants to do the recruiting game again. With all of the rules, restrictions and headaches that comes with it. Football is football but recruiting is the tough part.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 22, 2014 -> 07:45 PM) Yea he will never be the same. He should be. That is a fairly standard procedure now.

Chinks was a bad mascot for Pekin.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 23, 2014 -> 11:04 AM) I shouldn't have said there was no advantage, because the ball did move way faster and there are different affects different ballparks have on players. My basic point was that the Twins were good then because they were a good team, even if the ballpark helped them. They haven't been good lately because they've had bad teams, not because of any ballpark effect. I think it has had an effect on the team. The team was basically built with a certain type of player, albeit good players. I think once it changed the players needed to make an adjustment and the FO needed to change the type of player. The Punto, Knoblach type player isn't as effective elsewhere. Granted they were good players but were made more effective by the environment. I think the biggest change is the FO philosophy to players.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 23, 2014 -> 10:31 AM) I think that home field advantage was a little overstated, but it was present. I don't think it was so much that they could tailor their teams to the ballpark as it was that their players picked up the ball better at the Metrodome than other teams could because they played there all the time. The last few years, their teams have been really bad, especially pitching. They've had terrible starters and really, really bad bullpens. I think their bullpen is the biggest cause for concern moving forward, but they aren't and don't spend a lot because that's never really been the Twins thing. The homefield advantage was more there than other ballparks. with that ballpark anyone could hit down on the ball and make it bounce to run it out. Guys with speed could do it well. It was just contact. The Cell for example is a HR park but not everyone can do it and in order to do it players increase their strikeouts. So ballparks that lend themselves to contact hitter are more effective. Again it's not a huge advantage but it was more than others.

Very much like the cobden appleknockers or the hoopston cornjerkers for mascots.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 22, 2014 -> 11:56 AM) I may be in the minority here, but I want him with the big league club ASAP while getting that extra year of team control. Not sure if that's mid April or early May, but I truly believe he's a better starting option than both Danks & Noesei and I don't think we can afford to wait 3+ months for him to replace one of those guys in the rotation if we're serious about competing. Also, I don't think spending a full season with Cooper as a starter in the majors is going to be any worse for his development than dominating minor league hitters for most of the year. Rodon is a special talent and IMO he should be pushed along more aggressively. The issue is physical. He cannot pitch an entire MLB season as a starter. It will not be good for him physically. He should only go 160-170 innings. If the Sox begin the season with him as a starter, they will need to do as the Nationals did with Strasburg and shut him down in August. If the Sox are ina playoff race the fans will go nuts about this, even though it is the correct move.