ptatc

QUOTE (robinventura23 @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 02:34 PM) Sorry, I had to.... however, I've been told that pitching that coming into the beginning of the ninth inning is not difficult and just like any other inning. It's not a high leverage situation and your best reliever should not pitch there.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 04:56 PM) I am ideologically in favor of open borders but don't think it's practical either politically or realistically given the way the world currently functions. Exactly. In the ideal world it would work. however, that is not the climate in which we currently live.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 04:51 PM) We just have a fundamental difference of opinion. I am a free market capitalist, I ultimately believe that the freer the society is, the more prosperous it will become. You can google hundreds (if not thousands) of free market thinkers who come to similar conclusions. For example, many would argue the reason the US is not growing like it did at the turn of the 20th century was because of the restraint on immigration. I have no problem if you do not subscribe to free market ideas. Its just like arguing whether sausage or cheese pizza is better, it comes down to taste. Agreed. I have read many of them and do I agree with many of the points, I think there are too many restrictions on some things. I think it's like communism, everyone sharing everything sounds like a good idea, until people get in the way.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 04:45 PM) Payroll, gas, sales and property taxes are all things that are damn-near inescapable. State income taxes are often pretty regressive as well. The only real tax that low-income immigrants wouldn't be paying into would be federal income tax. Since it's acknowleged they will be among the poor as they will work for low wages, these will not amount to much. most will not own property so there will not much property tax. I should amend the "will not pay taxes" to they will pay very little in taxes. Again, I'm not against the idea of immigrant workers. I think they are necessary. I just think the open borders and unrestricted policy would work.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 04:37 PM) That isnt a good correlation. You dont end murder by making it legal. There would still be murders, it just wouldnt be a crime. And I never said there cant be rules once they get here. I have no problem making their stay contingent on rules. Just because you get a chance to be here, doesnt mean it has to be carte blanche. Also we just have a fundamental difference on economic policy, I believe more immigrants will increase the amount of money the US govt will have to spend on civil services, so it at worst would be a push, but likely would result in the US having more money for civil services. There is plenty of literature on this topic, I am not the one who invented it, that would be Adam Smith. your immigration policy would be the same as the people would still becoming into the country but instead of being illegal they are now legal there really wouldn't be a change. I've seen the ideas of no net change in the economy and I've seen other that dispute it. I just makes more sense to me that many more poor people not paying taxes in the current economic environment would put too much of a strain on the system. i guess it's just a different view point. With the way the current politics are going I don't think either option will ever get a true chance to work.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 04:28 PM) You are right no person in the world can predict the future. But you can look at history and try and make the best guess. Illegal immigration (in my opinion) is historically a losing cause unless you want to be a country like NK where you control the border on both sides. As for the economic part, you cannot know it will hurt or help the economy. Many economic theorists agree with me, that more immigrants = better stronger American economy. So we dont know if it will work, unless we try it? Is that not the same argument you made to me. I dont care about people crying if its not right. I dont care how many southerners cried against ending slavery, I dont care how many men cried about giving woman the right to vote. When something is the best, you have to stand by it regardless of what others may say. Statistically there is no evidence that immigrants = more crime. Its a circular argument, because if that argument was valid, my family would never have been allowed to come here (much like many of yours) because at one time in history our family was "the criminal immigrants" who are going to bring crime to the US. Dont you see why that is flawed? Youre family werent criminals just because they were immigrants, just like todays immigrants arent criminals merely because they are immigrants. People are people. Some are good, some are bad. In the end you hope that when you are good to people, they will do the right thing. Maybe they wont, but Id rather give someone the chance. Because I cant predict who is a criminal or not, and I don't believe that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than non-immigrants. I do believe that the police and prosecutor are more likely to arrest and convict an immigrant, but that is the same for any person who is not privileged. But that is a problem for another day. I don't think you are looking at it the right way. You are assuming that all of the immigrants will come here idealistic and righteous and be productive members of society. They aren't criminals because they are immigrants. However, because they are poor and will live in high crime areas, they will place more of a burden on the system and thus will contribute to the problem. They will be some that become desparate enough to turn to crime but hopefully not many. But I think you can agree that if you innundate the already high crime rate areas with even more poor people, crime will increase. You cannot equate the turn of the century US with the growing economy with the US of today. The economic condition isn't the same unrestricted poor workers will add to great of a burden on the government without much benefit, as someone said because they will not be paying taxes. Migrant workers are needed for the economy but to restrcit the number who stay here permanaetly would be the best of both worlds.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 04:04 PM) The reason you arent following my logic is because you dont want to accept that the best policy is to make legal immigration as easy as possible. You are asking me to discount my position "the best way to end illegal immigration is to make all immigration legal." The only way you can stop illegal immigration is to also prevent US citizens from leaving. If you have a completely closed border, you will have the best chance of stopping illegal immigration. As soon as you let people in and out, you have a risk of illegal immigration. I can come up with countless "gimmicks" to curtail immigration, at best it will marginally slow it down, at worst it will spend govt money with little to no result. Which is why the best answer to end illegal immigration is "make legal immigration easier." 2 birds, 1 stone. This is not a good answer. That's like saying the best way to end murder is to legalize murder. Just because you agree it's a good idea doesn't mean it's the best way to solve the problem. You can legalize it, but monitor it much more effectively. Maybe have non-US citizens check in and prove they are still working the way our student visa students need to do. Not a full time student, back you go. Not a working immigrant, off you go. Either way if it's unrestricted there will be just too much strain on the civil services (police, fire etc.) and the medical system in the US which is already over loaded. I'm not going to bring someone here and not take care of them

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 01:47 PM) Ptatc, The presumption is that a family wouldnt send their child alone to the US if they could also come with the child. There is no way to guarantee it, but that would be the hope. As for crimes are where immigrants gather, I believe that is because immigrants are generally poorer and therefore they are likely to be in places where crime rates are already high. Research from back then is inconclusive because there are a tremendous number of factors that go into whether someone is prosecuted or not: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831353/ I can see the first point. If it's easier for the parents, they would come as well. for the second point, it really doesn't matter why the crime rate is higher. Where they mass together there will be a high crime rate and thus put more of a strain on the government supported system. If it just the area because they are poor then there will just be more poor people in the high crime rate area thus more crimes. Also, in today's society with the politicians complaining about the lack of a middle class, can you imagine the outcry when we add millions more poor people to the country?

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 02:34 PM) Headed for Eugene, Oregon for a wedding on 4th of July weekend. Any recommendations gladly accepted! Mesa Verde is great, but be prepared for the fact that you can no longer walk around in some of the bigger structures anymore because they were wearing down too quickly with all the abuse. Still can see them all, and walk in some. If you want the cooler experience with those, find a way to get off the heavily used trails. Get out further into the backcountry, where there are lots of other archaelogical sites left open for exploration. It just means you need to be able to walk a lot farther. Also, you can get a similar experience in Canyon De Chelly or Chaco Culture with a LOT fewer people, if you are willing to drive an extra couple hours. Thanks for the insight. Is there a specific trail or direction for the other sites? That sounds like the way to go.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 24, 2014 -> 12:27 PM) Some of those things have nothing to do with capitalism. Ill comment on those that do. 40 hours a week, your choice, your life. Overtime, employer decision. Safety standards, thats why we have lawyers for negligence. Pollution standards, same as before, you pollute, expect to get sued for damages. Minimum wage, you should have the right to work at any price you want. Taxes of course are part of capitalism, they are thoroughly discussed in Wealth of Nations. None of these still answer the problem of the under 14 year old group that started the conversation. These will not be part of your scenario. The economy needs the migrant workers for the farms and factories for the lower wages that most Americans wouldn't live on. There's no doubt about it. However, it goes back to the same discussion about the "foundation" of immigration you've spoken about. It's sounds like you've read and understand the history of immigration in the US in the late 1800's and early 1900's. If so, you know about what a crime ridden areas were where immigrants gathered together to live. It dramatically increased crime rates, murder was so rampant that pauper graves were made on public islands because the government couldn't find enough room for them. We've made alot of strides in the standard of living since then and if you open the borders again with no control history shows that crimes will dramatically increase in areas where immigrants gathers.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 09:15 PM) lol Right, instead of arguing legitimately, lets just say "if you wont donate every ounce of your time to a cause" its not worth it. Its sad that this type of inane comment is applauded. Your money? Its OUR money. Never forget that. The US govt spends money on stupid s*** I dont agree with every day, I dont say "if you believe that we should stop immigration you only get a say if you are in border patrol" or if you want to invade iraq I dont say "you cant say anything unless you join the army." But thanks for that insight, really ground breaking. Look I get it. It seems better if we put up a fence and keep the undesirables out. But giving your position all of the benefits, it is at best a push economically. And im not denying people the opportunity to have freedom and everything I believe in over a push. It's only a push if they truly come here and work. This is what needs to be basis of any immigration.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 09:08 PM) I think Spencer Adams gave up more hits in the first inning tonight than he did his entire high school season Welcome to pro ball, son!

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 08:14 PM) Children wouldnt be coming here alone if we allowed their parents to legally immigrate with them. Most parents dont send their children away to foreign countries unless the situation is extremely dire. I disagree. If you want to come to America, follow the laws, you should have a chance. Just like the rest of us. The country isnt full, we have plenty of space. The arguments against are based on the idea that an American is deserving of more, just because they were born in America. It completely turns a blind eye to our history, to the very essence of what it means to be an American. America is nothing more than a hollow shell if we prevent others from having the same freedom and opportunity that we claim to espouse to the world. I agree. There is plenty of room. More people should come, live and contribute to this great country. The key being contribute. The price of living here to pursue the dream of a better life, is to pursue a better life not to sponge of the country and contribute nothing. There should be ways to monitor this. The parents should be allowed to immigrate if they prove they will contribute. I don't know about you but I would never send my under aged child away. Not until I was sure they were old enough to reasonably take care of themselves. I have a friend who at the age of 12, jumped the Berlin Wall with two friends. One of them was gunned down the other two made it. If you have the guts to do that you are old enough to take care of yourself.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 08:50 PM) Yeah, he's playing better but where has the power gone? He hit 8 HRs last year in like 200 ABs. That's what happens when you try to raise the AVE. The power drops.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 08:26 PM) Hawkins 2 run triple. As bad as Davidson has been, he's still going to hit 20 homers. That's what happens when you swing for the fences all the time.

QUOTE (sin city sox fan @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 07:48 PM) I know its tough to do, but I think we need to skip Sale's next turn up in the rotation. The continued over use of him by Ventura has caught up with us and the extended rest is needed. He has not been overused. However, as stated earlier with his histroy pushing back starts a day or two coming up, not skipping starts, would not be a bad idea.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 07:31 PM) Ilya Somin makes the libertarian case for open borders http://openborders.info/blog/immigration-a...itical-freedom/ I don't necessarily disagree with it. Although I would have a couple of conditions. 1. Like Australia, you must prove you have enough money to get home before I allow you in. 2. Like most of the EU and Canada, you must show either that you have employment or have skills that are needed. 3. Be tracked to show you have employment at a reasonable time. I'm all for more people if they are a productive part of the society, as I think it was Soxbadger stated.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 07:04 PM) I know you disagree with the philosophy, but I really hope they start limiting his pitch counts if this team continues to slide. He's not looked nearly as sharp in 3 of his last 4 games now. I disagree with a strict pitch count in a given game. However, given his history I would definitely skip a start every now and then for the same reason. Edit: let me re-phrase that. It came out wrong. I would give him a few extra days between starts every now and them to give him a true break. Limiting him by 15-20 pitches in starts will not have the same effect.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 07:03 PM) Abolish all national borders, artificial restrictions on the free movement of people. Are there any laws in this country of Pangea to which you refer? If so, can I make them?

QUOTE (chisoxt @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 06:29 PM) Chris not fooling them do far Is this the game where all of the scouting reports abut Sale throwing alot of change ups catches up to him? They've figured out that it is coming instead of the slider and since it's his 3rd pitch, they can kill it?

QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 06:15 PM) And just like our debate here, the children are caught up in this problem. I don't think Alpha would turn away an 8 year old on his doorstep asking for help. But it is easy to say no to a faceless illegal out to screw America. This is a problem. However, when is enough enough. Is it a single 8 year old or a dozen of them. As alpha said, I wouldn't turn them away. I would help them until I had a chance to get them to the authorities. It's tough enough to raise the ones I brought into the world and for which I am responsible. I've worked with a number of legal and illegal immigrants from factories and the labor force. Many of them work here earn money and go back home to live like kings for the winter. As long as people contribute there isn't a problem. It's the ones that live of any taxpayer money with which I have the problem.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 05:53 PM) Jenks, It would take a lot of time and effort to explain while lower wage workers actually would increase the wages for regular so I will try and explain the most simplistic terms: The entire idea of free market is that if someone will work for $7.50 a business should be able to hire them. The problem is once you start creating artificial floors you decrease the demand for labor. If I have to pay workers $7.50 an hour, I can hire 4 workers instead of 1 at $30. Economics suggest that is the appropriate business model, unless the 1 worker is worth 4x the other workers. It doesnt screw anyone. If you are worth $30 an hour, you will make your $30. But if you are not as good as someone who will take 25% of your wage, why are you deserving of more? That breaks the entire system and the result is manufacturers/etc moving to other markets where the cost of labor is cheaper. I didnt read the whole paper, but this Cato article has some of the reasoning behind why most people are backwards on immigration: http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/file...pdf/tbp-032.pdf This would be true if the people were coming here to work. In the example here, I believe al lor most of them are children under the working age. These are not workers thus will not add much to the economy but will take from it.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 05:03 PM) Obviously not baseball related but is that the same spray they use at the World Cup? Pretty useless there too I take it? It is. However, you will see it used outside the US because ice is not as readily available. They don't use ice for much of anything.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 23, 2014 -> 01:26 PM) Back 15-20 years ago, every time a guy fouled a ball off his foot or was hit in the hand by a pitch, a trainer would spray him with some sort of freezing agent. How come they don't do that any longer? Because they found out that it was just a topical effect and the effect of the cold did not reach down to where the injury was. The effects of cold that really help the injury are to slow down the inflammatory process. The topical modalities numbed the pain a little but didn't do much else. Plus it's cheaper to just have the ice or cold packs handy.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jun 20, 2014 -> 02:15 PM) It has lead to "blow ups" twice this season. I have been Danks biggest fan here but I'm sure those games will pop up now and then, but I think more oten then not he'll be what we saw his last 5 starts. His velo, I believe is about the same as it was last year, I just think he's "learned how to pitch", and that is making the difference. You mean every now and then he'll have a bad game? I'll live with that from any pitcher.