ptatc

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:53 AM) Next time Kenny Williams wins a trade, it will be the first time since the Quentin one. He's on a very, very bad stretch right now and that's why so many people are frustrated with him. NO ONE blames Kenny for signing Dunn. It was a great move and a great deal for the Sox...it just hasn't panned out so far. You can't say that the trade Kenny has failed with were "great deals" at the time. Can you say that he has put together good teams that have consistently been in contention for the playoffs? This is my criteria for a good GM. This of course is subjective. Instead of looking at each individual transaction (trade, FA signing etc.) can he build overall good teams? I really don't care overall how he builds the team as long as he can build a good team. does his success in getting Rameirez and possibly Viciedo (we still don't know how successful he will be in the majors), negate his "lack of winning trades." It's fun to discuss the individual transactions but that isn't the important overall outcome. Winning is.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:31 AM) Awesome! And to ptatc, the total wins aren't as important as division titles. This is where we disagree. The only thing a team can control is their own wins. I prefer the consistent team that wins as opposed to the division title view. For example, would you rather have the marlins situation or the Sox. The Sox are consistent good but only win the WS once. But I enjoy seeing them win and have a good team regularly. The Marlins on the other hand have won 2 WS but have been really bad in others. It is only a matter of what you want to see. I understand your view and what you want but I prefer the consistently good team as opposed to the Marlins version.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:49 AM) I have no idea what really goes on in the front office, but Hahn and Kenny are not of the same baseball philosophy. Until Hahn gets a chance to run his own team, I wouldn't be to sure of that.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 01:08 AM) Please sign...haha. Seriously, this is too much. Now before someone suggests Joe McEwing, keep in mind that 1) he comes from the LaRussa school of managing (with its pros and cons) and can we honestly say that he's played an integral role in the development of any of our players? Maybe he has...I don't follow the minors as much as some here, would like to be enlightened. Dave Martinez is a former Sox RFer, very popular around the game, well-spoken and good with the media and ladies (cue jokes about stealing Sandberg's wife), a disciple of one of the 3 best (and creative) managers in the game in Joe Maddon, and he comes from a system where players are drafted and developed....instead of constantly mixing in FA talent and 25% roster changeover every offseason via trade. He also fits with the Sox mode of being on the cutting edge in minority hiring and promotion, the Sox having already baptized Ozzie, KW and Kim Ng in key leadership positions. Just say no to Joey Cora!!! If Martinez won't take the position because it's the middle of the season, deferring to an off-season interview opportunity, then you go to Omar Vizquel as player manager, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Robin Ventura or Jack McDowell and offer them the job for the remainder of the season. You'd keep Cooper/Baines (not sure exactly why, just hate the idea of making him the scapegoat for some reason) in place and then let those guys name their own hitting coach. I don't think Ventura would do it, out of respect to Ozzie, but McDowell might be crazy enough to try. But seriously, in Hahn's shoes, he should go with Omar Vizquel for the rest of the year and roll the dice. Cooper came to mind as well, but for the White Sox fanbase to really get back behind this team, it needs to be someone connected to Sox history or Chicago who's NOT Cora, Buddy Bell or Walker. If those four guys wouldn't do it, I'd also consider offering the position to Steve Stone. I'd much rather go down this "all in" season with Stone Pony, Dave Martinez or Omar Vizquel than Ozzie making the decisions. Ventura (as hitting coach), McDowell (bench coach) and Alomar, Jr. (bench coach), would be 4-6. Fisk, #7. Tony Pena (former catcher and Royals' manager, not reliever) #8. I would throw Jake Peavy's name into the mix but he would probably get hurt again and nobody would listen to him. You have some good ideas in there and some not worth mentioning. McDowell and Fisk are too big of a**holes and no one would listen to them. Ventura is such a quiet guy I'm not sure how effective he would be. He is more the GM type in my opinion. Hahn has learned under Williams so if Cora is out due to the Ozzie influence, Hahn should be out as well. If there are changes, I do like the Martinez, Alomar Jr. They imoressed me as good "coach types" in my dealings with them.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:01 AM) I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context. Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins. Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though. It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have. And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here. You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others). The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers. Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization. I really wish other people believed that too. I agree with you. I think this is a good organization in the overall picture. This should be a good discussion as many here micromanage and don't always see the big picture, wins. A team can only control their games and their wins. Even though the team has done well over the past number of years combined, your going to get the "what have they done the past 3 , 2 or 1 years." comments from many. That is a valid point but again individual things happen in a given year that is beyond the control of the team. We were weak in offense last year. The team went out and got one of the most consistent offensive production players in recent memory (Dunn, although that style of play still drives me crazy). He of course has the worst year of his career, probably due to the change in leagues, position and added pressure. I still think the plan was good but it just hasn't worked out so far. It is a good organization. It wins more than most teams.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 03:24 PM) I think he's a mid .700's OPS 3b once he fully develops/adapts, and may cross .800 a couple times given the park he's playing in. This would be impossible. I think many people have proven on this board that it is impossible to improve once you've made it to the majors. You are are what you are once you begin your career, unless you start out well then you will only regress.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 01:46 AM) I'm still excited about Trayce Thompson. He's not going to be a Stanton-esque prospect, but there is a lot to like about him, notably his plate discipline and raw power. If you have those, you can survive striking out 150+ times a season...Adam Dunn has made a living off of it. Mitchell leaves me much less excited. He seems to have a decent eye at the plate, but I don't know how good his bat control is, I don't think his power is going to be anything substantial, and his speed may ultimately end up worse than originally projected due to the Achilles injury. Has there been a recent injury or do you mean the tendon tear that caused him to miss the season? If you are referring to the one that caused him to miss a season that was a tear of the posterior tibialis tendon. I'm not saying this to be an a** but the injuries would effect his future differently. An achilles injury could really effect his speed. The posterior tib injury will effect the stability of his foot but not really effect his speed. If he has lost speed, it most likely isn't due to the tendon injury. Unless it is a fear issue, that could be.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 14, 2011 -> 09:37 AM) IMO, it has everything to do with Ozzie's desire to have a slappy, speedy guy at the top of the order. The switch to lead off hitter is a lot less difficult than Dunn's adjustment, as you only truly lead off once. This is true but players don't look at it that way. The guy who bats leadoff is only supposed to worry about getting on base and moving runners along. That is their mindset. Just like the "closers" position where people think there is no difference between facing the opposing team's best hitters in an important situation in the 7th or the 9th. In a player's mind there is a big difference. If they blow it in the 7th, the team can still come baqck in the 8th and 9th. If you blow it in the 9th, game over. This is why some hitters can't hit leadoff and some pitcher's can't close. It's a mind set of the player. I'm all for Viciedo getting a chance, he looks like he can be good if he keeps the Ks down. However you need to make sure the player that is going to the leadoff spot is mentally tough enough. I don't think Rios has the mental makeup, based on previous situations and I'm not sure Lillibridge is talented enough for a full season.

I don't see Ventura as a manger. That would be like Baines as a manager. Both very smart and good baseball people but not great communication skills. He's more the front office type. I bet he is shotting for a GM position. Fisk would never make a good manager. The players wouild hate him within a month. He can't get along with anyone and if you got in his doghouse you would never see daylight again. Talk about a guy who holds grudges. It took him about 25 years to talk to the Red Sox again because they wouldn't re-sign him as a free agent.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 6, 2011 -> 08:52 AM) Fine, forget about the Cubs portion of that last post. Let's address the other part. Again, at what point does one realize he's incapable of pitching through pain? You're not helping anybody by getting hurt every couple weeks. When you feel something, anything, let Herm, the medical staff or whatever know. He doesn't deserve extra credit for trying to be tough. It's not trying to be tough. It's his overall attitude. You can't be a extremely competitive person when you want to be. It's who he is. The same thing that makes him want to pitch through problems is the same thing that makes him a Cy Young award winning pitcher and a pitcher who came back from an unprecedented injury. Was what he did smart? No. But all athletes that are at the very top of their profession tend to have this attitude. Did MJ sit out of a game when he had food poisoning? No. Why did he do it? It's because that was his personality. If he would have flopped in that game everyone would have ripped him for playing while sick and "not helping the team." I prefer this attitude to the "giving up" attitude of some players. But then again that type of player is not usually one of the best in the game.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 5, 2011 -> 10:09 PM) As fathom always says, thank the devil they took advantage of their chance in '05. Looking back now, it's hard to believe a team under this management/coaching staff pulled off a World Series title. I almost can't wait for KW and Ozzie to be gone to hear what you have to say about the next group. JR will not hire a GM or manager with much experience. Past records with both the Sox and Bulls he prefers to find rookies and see how they do. That will be some interesting reading.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jun 5, 2011 -> 08:11 PM) He's a f***ing idiot, there is no way to possibly defend him at this point re: continued fighting through injury, but I will love to watch people continue to try. so you prefer the type of athlete that, at the slightest pain just gives up and says I'm done? That's fine if you prefer an athlete with that type of attitude. I prefer the type that doesn't give in and continues to work at it. Pitching is a violent motion and pitchers always hurt to some extent. You get guys like Prior who can't deal with it and guys like Peavy who try to work through it. You can have Prior, I'll take Peavy.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 4, 2011 -> 08:34 PM) I have no clue how Sale's ever going to be a starter. Righties get too good of a look against him. Maybe the Sox management agree and that's why is in the pen.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jun 4, 2011 -> 05:35 PM) The book on Morel has always been an adjustment period. ALWAYS started slow. Hopefully with some increased playing time, and, you know, leaving him alone, he'll get comfy. There is no learning at the MLB level. You must be a star right away or you'll never be any good.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 3, 2011 -> 10:07 PM) Don't tell me you really buy into Hawks lines? This is the same guy who was telling us Dunn might be back the day after his appendix was out. that was unrealistic. Even with laprascopic surgery you need to cut through abdominal muscles and for a hitter that is painful.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 3, 2011 -> 10:06 PM) Technically don't they at least have to cut skin? Yes, but it will be a very small incision on the back of the hand where it won't get in the way. If he needs to hit they will just put a pad over it and a batting glove on top. It really shouldn't bother him unless they needed to "dig" it out. In that case it would be sore but it doesn't sound like this is the case. Removing loose bodies will not cause much soreness.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 3, 2011 -> 09:39 PM) Is it really minor enough to be able to hit again that same day? yes, it's minimally invasive with just a small incision. He'll feel better without the grinding or block in his wrist movement. they aren't cutting anything, just removing something that is already loose.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 3, 2011 -> 06:40 PM) He had minor surgery and is available tonight? I don't get that. Two things worry me, though. Dunn's minor surgery didn't have a great outcome. And Konerko's last bad season was due to a wrist injury. It is probably related to the hamate bone fracture he had years ago, in the minors or early in his career. Sometimes there is just a little piece of bone that gets dislodged, especially in the bottom hand of the hitter. The knob of the bat bangs around in the palm and can cause loose pieces of bone. The surgery is just to make a tiny incision and remove the bone, especially if it's near the surface. There is no pressure on the back of the hand so they can play with a small incision there.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ May 25, 2011 -> 08:26 PM) This has been a problem since June 2006 ................fire Walker new life is needed on this team. Th9is has been a problem with the Sox since the early 80's. I remember the Sox just flailing away against soft tossing lefties like Scott McGregor and Mike Flanagan. You'll see from my previous posts that I often bring up Sox futility against lefties, especially soft tossers.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 25, 2011 -> 07:28 PM) That '94 team was special. I know Kalapse thinks they're overrated. Hell with that. If they had finished that season out, they were at least in the Series. That team was loaded. Led by the best offensive player (that's never cheated) that I've ever seen. For that one year, anyway. That team was good but I think the Expos were better.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 25, 2011 -> 06:29 PM) It's amazing that we're only 5 games under. We're getting replacement or below replacement level production at DH, CF, LF, 2B and C. That's a lot of suckage on one team. But Greg Walker is still a great hitting coach. Pitching is still the most important variable in baseball and our pitching is pretty good. That is why we are only slightly below .500.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ May 25, 2011 -> 02:51 AM) Baseball should really just stop keeping track of that statistic. that's true. Winning means nothing in baseball. The teams with the best OPS, OBP, strikeouts and UZR make the playoffs.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 23, 2011 -> 05:09 PM) I would never fire at you. I don't do that. But I don't like the way Morel is being handled. i don't either but making the generalization that no young player will develop is unfair. Although it does seem to be hitters and not pitchers doesn't it. Maybe Ozzie is the anti-Pinella, he has no idea how to handle hitters,

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 23, 2011 -> 05:02 PM) He's made Morel a platoon guy without even knowing if he's a platoon guy. No young talent will ever develop with Ozzie in charge. I think you're going overboard with the generalization. Ozzie didn't do this with Beckham, Alexei or TCQ when they struggled as young players. The coaches must see something that they prefer to ease Morel into the full time role with giving him good chances to succeed. Go head and fire away at me for looking for an answer.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 23, 2011 -> 02:17 PM) You can treat dwarfism? I was also unaware that Leno was such a cheater. Yes you can in certain instances. Dwarfism in a generic sense is a pituitary problem, where it doesn't produce the appropriate amount of human growth hormone (HGH). Sometimes these conditions can be treated some cannot. It depends on how well the pituitary is functioning.