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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 12:16 PM) But a lot of times it's not just us vs the Pirates. Players typically have a handful of options to choose from. When it's the Sox vs a similar team with a potential for similar success and near equal pay, why go with the soap opera? I'm not denying that the Oney situation could cause some problems. But many players prefer an open coach to one that doesn't communicate and you have no idea where you stand. Showalter was one of these. when a players is making a decision to sign with a team there are many factors. Usually the top factors are(don't go to extremes and imply I'm saying always) Money, length of contract, geography and chance to win. Think of how players have stated "I don't worry about the business end I leave that for my agent, thast's why I pay him." Again, I'm not saying it isn't a factor but it's way down this prioity list. It doesn't effect your pay, home or family.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 12:11 PM) This reminds me of the debates about whether or not emotions effect play. Of course they do, to say otherwise is silly - these are human beings. Similarly here, I am sure it will have some effect. The real question is, how much of one? On current players or prospective ones? No one can know the answer, but I think we can all say pretty confidently that any effect won't be a positive one. Also... Oh my lord. Ouzo by itself is bad enough, but mixed with Coke? I think I'd rather drink vomit. Let me clarify. The Coke is to drink while eating the Gyro. The ouzo is the dessert. I would never ruin a good liquor by mixing it with coke. That would be awful.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 12:00 PM) It's one thing to hear Ozzie is a goof, or Ozzie is crazy, or whatever. It's another thing to hear or read in print Ozzie's kid say a player is a crybaby, discuss his use of alcohol or drugs, discuss incidents out at a bar, discuss the current state of that player's marriage, etc. You guys can downplay it all you want, but there are players in the MLB who will not even want to touch that situation, or maybe they would come here but would always be guarded. How that is beneficial to us, I dunno...but you guys keep making stuff up to make yourselves feel better. I'm sure there are. but I bet if you ask them would you rather play in this situation or for the Pirates, the answer would be different. All players have some preferences. Remember Curt Schilling would never play for JR due to his perceived role in the 93-94 strike. All I'm saying is that I'm sure there are players who wouldn't play for Ozzie but I'm also sure that there are others who love to play for a manager who tells them straight up what the situation is and communicates with them. I think this Oney situation could change that some however as players may be less open with Ozzie.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 11:35 AM) Players don't talk to each other? And I guess I'll take your word on how close players are in baseball seeing that you have years of experience playing in MLB. They talk but unless their close the money will over ride any gossip. And yes I've spend a good amount of time in MLB, NFL and NBA locker rooms.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 11:35 AM) Morning cocktails? It's almost afternoon. (I'm also home with my kids who are still out of school) Besdies a shot of ouzo is good anytime when when gyros is served.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 11:34 AM) That fact that Ozzie is in the media and has been around for 7 years makes thsi poll skewed. Adam Dunn had never met or spoken to Ozzie Guillen before he signed withteh White Sox. How could he then say if he wanted to plpay with them or not. Baseball is not the tight knit community that peopel think it is. The teams are. The players are only tight with friends from previous teams and otherplayers their agents represent.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 10:43 AM) I want a Gyro, fries with extra cucumber sauce. X2 with ouzo and a Coke

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 05:34 PM) Do you think that having a closer blowing games because of personal issues is a distraction as well? And maybe is the sort that angers potential FA's and trade options? Players understand the problems of distractions. They wouldn't hold it against a team. Even if they did Jenks had 3 loses last year. An FA who looked it up, not that any of them care about individual player stats they usually want to know how good the team is, they would see he lost 3 games. that's better than many other closers in the game.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 03:59 PM) Well, yeah, I don't doubt that. KHP said or else. As if ultimately he would fire Ozzie. I don't think that ever happens. i agree he wouldn't fire Ozzie. He will let KW do what he thinks is right. JR is loyal to his employees and let's them do their job. Like when Phil Jackson had his power play and wanted both GM and coach positions. JR told him Krause had the GM postion so Jackson left. He went to LA divorced his wife and married the owners daughter so he could get the GM fired and took over both positions.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 03:54 PM) 2005. The end. I can't think of another manager in any sport ever living off of one year like Ozzie has and will likely continue to. I know we've been over this but Ozzie has a good record as a manger with few losing seasons. Many maagers have been kept around with worse records. I now you don't like him because he doesn't do "sabermetrics" much but his teams succeed much more than they fail. As for an example just look in Chicago. Lovie Smith has been kept around with far less success.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 03:45 PM) JR would never do this. Jerry Krause would still be GM of the Bulls if it were up to him. i think this is exactly something JR would do. He wouldn't fire Ozzie (as per your analogy) but he would sit him down and tell him how to handle the problems arising from his team.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 03:41 PM) I'm sorry, but Jenks criticized how he was handled professionally. Oney responded by airing out a bunch of details about Jenks' personal life. Those are two completely different responses in terms of degree. If Oney wanted to say Jenks didn't get it done on the field, fine. But the White Sox are supposed to be a respectful organization operated by professionals. This is not the kind of response such a respectful organization of any kind makes. And Balta, you can say they didn't formally make this response all you want, but the fact is Oney has the relationships he does and information that he does because he is granted certain privileges by the White Sox, and it is their responsibility to make sure he isn't divulging information like this to the public. This is an excellent post and description. What Oney needs to realize that what happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse, especially for the non-players. I've been involved with many professional and collegiate clubhouses and you need to know where the boundary is. The personal stuff cannot be discussed with other people. It's a violation of trust (as well as law in some cases). No team will go anywhere without the respect and trust of the players and coaches involved.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 12:08 PM) All closers were non-closers at some point, and more often than not, they make the transition at the major league level. On a pretty frequent basis, they find success early as well. Thornton has had some experience closing, and I think he deserves a shot, aside from the fact that I think the closer is a stupid pigeon-holed role. all of this is true, if your building a team. However we know two things in reference to your post: 1) Ozzie is going to use a "closer" role regardless of what we feel. 2) With the additions in the off season the Sox want to win this year and with some of the pitcher's contracts may have a small window to win. Are you comfortable enough with this bullpen to believe they can do the job? I would prefer someone with more experience with the rest of the team the sox have. The current bullpen may come through, and as a sox fan I hope they do, however I think they are taking a big risk in relying on a relatively inexperienced bullpen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 11:41 AM) I'm still on the other side on this one, and you and I are obviously going to disagree. But in the sense of being another player in that locker room...let's say I'm Matt Thornton or JJ Putz. Bobby Jenks has been doing things in his personal life that have affected his performance on the field. He's blowing games that I think I could finish. I'm not getting my shot to close because Ozzie sticks with him. I keep my mouth shut despite the fact that Bobby's personal issues are boiling over on to the field and we're losing games because of it. My career is being hurt because of the number of chances that Ozzie is giving Jenks. And then Jenks comes out and attacks Ozzie's use of the bullpen? I'd want to be the one ripping him publicly. You can do the same game with any of the other players...every one of them is keeping his mouth shut about Bobby's issues...they're losing games because of it...and Bobby has the audacity to complain about how he was being used and demand even more of a free ride? You guys can look at it and say that this would build a wall up between Ozzie and his players, I see the opposite. If I were on that team, I'd respect him a lot more if I know that there's only so far that he can be pushed. The ideal situation is that it all stays in house. The players complain to Ozzie about the lack of playing time or whatever. However, we know it sometimes goes public. I wouldn't have a problem with it if the public comments were strctly playing or game related. This is still somewhat professional. However, as soon as it goes to personal issuesit crosses the line. This stuff should never be discussed. This situation is worse because it looks like Ozzie told his whole family about personal issues with one of his players or employees. Oney may have heard about it from someone else but on the surface it looks like Ozzie told his family. If Jenks wanted to, he has a strong case for a law suit against Ozzie and the team. Players will think twice before they talk to Ozzie and may go directly to KW which means Ozzie will lose some respect and control with the team.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 11:24 AM) I don't think I've ever seen a post from you in which I've disagreed more sternly with than this one. It is absolutely ridiculous and Oney needs to keep his mouth shut. This reflects very poorly on Ozzie and it is to the point that Ozzie needs to keep his mouth shut when he talks about baseball with his family because they have loose lips. I know the organization didn't say these things, but if I'm a player and I see this happen, I think twice about coming to Ozzie with something. I should point out, Jenks problems are far more severe than the typical situation and the Sox stuck by his side through some bad moments. Jenks isn't all that different from Josh Hamilton and people seem to forget that. While Hamilton was into much harder drugs, Bobby Jenks minor league time with the Angels and his childhood are well documented and the Sox did a lot for him and I'm sure they don't like hearing what they did. At the same time, Oney can't go out and run his mouth and someone needs to shut him up. I have no doubt what Oney said is 100% true though, but still, shut your mouth. After all the "he said she said" worthless name calling is done, this will be the issue that will effect the Sox during the season. Ozzie needs to be able to communicate with his players as he has always done. This issue may inhibit communication and could really hurt the Sox.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 12:14 AM) So experienced closers don't blow games? Nobody told Mariano Rivera because he managed to blow five saves last year. No of course not. Let's take it to the extreme? However, good experienced closers will lose fewer games. The Sox currently have no one on the roster with experience closing more than just a few games. There are exceptions like when Jenks did well in 2005 but he at least was closing the whole year in the minors so he was used to the situation. Hopefully the Sox will find another one this year.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 03:31 AM) But honestly, this stuff happens to real people all the time. People start drinking again all the time. People have marital troubles all the time. Far worse things happen to real people all the time. He is a professional and he should have been able to continue to perform as such. I understand he is a human being first, and a pitcher for the White Sox pitcher comes somewhere down the line after husband and father, etc., but come on. Life happens and you deal with it. Jenks is immature and silly for taking some parting shots and Oney and the Guillen family are wildly arrogant and naive to think this isn't going to catch up with them sooner rather than later. In an ideal world this is true. But performing at a professional athlete level with total focus and concentration is tough enough. When you add the kind of troubles he is talking about , it becomes near impossible. Maintaining that level of focus is the hardest part of baseball. It's a mental grind more than physical. Things like this are often the reason why talented players either don't reach their potential or are inconsistent at times.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:49 PM) Closers are a dime a dozen. If you participate in fantasy baseball, as I know you do, you already know this. thank you Bill James. I have a feeling the Sox are going to test your statement. We'll see how many games the Sox lose this year with no experienced closer and a lead in the ninth.

Just found out I'm related to Jayson (I will refer to him as Jayson now). He is from my father's hometown and is my father's cousin adopted son. I think this is a close enough relation to ask for a loan. Maybe I could become his posse.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2010 -> 08:22 AM) I think Sale probably will...but you're right on Pena being a possible 7th starter option. I still don't think The Sox will need a fill in for Peavy for very long if at all. If they do need one I think the Sale or Pena options will work as it will be a short time.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Dec 26, 2010 -> 03:41 PM) Cool, thanks! I know my A&P but I have no idea about kinesiology! Either way, it wasn't gonna be fixed by a 15 day DL stint, am I right? Probably not. If the tendon was close enough to tearing, the rest and meds would make it feel better but not allow the tendon to heal. That type of healing would take 6-9 weeks.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 05:41 PM) I never liked him. I wish the search function worked so I could find threads from '06 of me mocking Cubs fans that talked him up because of his hit total. I had to accept him, obviously, because he was a member of the Sox. But watching him EVERY day took my hate to rarefied levels. I had to actually pimp him for sporting a .345 OBP at one point during the season. And if you take away all those HBPs, it was probably .330 or lower. I just can't get over the fact that the best-case scenario for a starting LF is a single. I just can't. Singles are sexy!!!

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 12:35 PM) I could be wrong, but I don't think his shoulder tightness had anything to do with the tendon tear, and even if what he was feeling was his tendon weakening, the only thing that would have fixed it was surgery or a LONG layoff. Ligament and muscle damage work very differently. This season was lost no matter what, unless he adjusted his mechanics to reduce the stress on his decelerators. Even that isn't a sure thing, as lat tendon avulsions are completely unprecedented in pitchers. Deceleration involves the external rotators such as the rotator cuff and posterior deltoid. The lat, which was torn is an accelerator which is why it is such a uinque injury for a pitcher. Most injuries in a pitchers should involve the decelerators or the stabilizers.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:15 PM) That's a lame excuse. A good farm is as much about depth as it is star power. The only reason for the farm existence is too help the MLB club. We currently have good young players at 3B, SS, 2B with established veterans at CF and 1B. The starting pitching is complete with talented veterans and 1 young promising rookie (Sale). The bullpen has two established veterans (Thronton, Crain), a good young righty (Santos) and maybe Sale. The only positions not adequately filled for a few years are corner outfield due to injury history (Quentin) and average to below average performance (Pierre) and catcher for age (AJ) along with a bullpen arm or two. I think the farm or international signings has produced well and has a few years to produce players for either trade or MLB production. Personally, I love watching the minors as I worked there for a few years. However, I like KW philosophy of prospects are suspects until they are proven in the MLB so if you can get proven MLB players you need, you are going to be right more than wrong because most prospects will fail.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 21, 2010 -> 10:39 PM) I believe this managerial impact is taken into account in Bill James Saber model. In the Bill James Handbook there is a whole section on managers where it breaks down number of times a manger calls for a sacrifice, hit and run, steal, pitching change, etc and then statistically shows his success rate. Most importantly, there is a figure called Manager Wins, which is like WAR for manager, or how many wins is the manager worth given his decision making, strategy, and tactics. I do think that's a very telling figure. I agree with the premise of Bill James' model. I still have a problem with the WAR concept. While it basically attempts to establish an "average" to use as a replacement, it discounts the availability or opportunity of this replacement player. In managers it's even more difficult. Many managers make decisions based on situations and don't always follow the same pattern for strategy. This is problematic enough without looking at the abstract concept of the managers impat on the motivation, mood or focus of a player on a day to day basis. I like what Bill James and sabermetrics try to do as a whole, I was a subscriber to his early newsletters in the 80's. However, as I've said before from a statisticians point of views he basically decides what he thinks is important and creates a formula in an attempt to quantify it. It has many hole in it and while it is helpful on making decisions people carry way too far. Being heavily involved in reviewing research articles for peer reviewed publications, sometimes you can microanalyze the numbers, make them say what you want them to say and lose sight of the big picture.