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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 03:30 PM) While a ball slices if its hit down the line and hit a certain way, the same thing happens down the LF line with LH hitters and RH hitters the ball will hook. The reason RF is more difficult in general, obviously ballpark configuration and sun and wind can change this, is the throws. Very rarely does a LF have to throw the ball to 1B. The throw to 3rd is a lot more difficult from RF. Besides, anyone who has played the OF regularly will have figured out "slices and hooks" especially major leaguers. If that's difficult for them, they shouldn't be out there. I disagree. The better outfielders can figure this out but not all of them. The harder the ball is hit the less hook or slice it will have. Think about a curve ball vs. a slider. The harder thrown ball (slider) will break less. In the outfield the same concept applies. The harder its hit, usually the pulled ball, the less it will move. The slicing ball will move more. There are many games where the outfielder took "the wrong route" to the ball. It happens almost every game. It's not because the didn't see it, it's because they read it wrong. This happens all of the time. when you watch games. It's alot more difficult than most people think because of how hard the ball is hit.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 02:38 PM) The problem of course is that the OBP isn't the only part of the equation. If you give me 2 guys with identical slugging numbers, one steals 50 bases at an 80% clip but has a .1 lower OBP than a guy who steals 2, of course you take the 50 steals guy. But if the guy with the higher OBP also has a significantly higher slugging percentage and hits a lot more home runs...well, if Konerko and Owens had identical OBP's, Owens stole 60 bases, Konerko bopped 40 home runs, which one would you pick? This is a question I always go crazy thinking about and the only way I can answer it is to take the easy way out: it depends on the make up of the rest of the team. I always lean towards pitching and defense. In that case the speedster hopefully (although not always) provides that extra defense at either the outfield or middle infield which is important. The other side is a high OBP doesn't necessarily mean much in the playoffs because there is a lower OBP across the board due to the fact that you don't get to face the other teams 4-5 starters 40% of the time that you do in the regular season. Santana may make one mistake that PK can hit for the homer but you may not get the 2 base hits you need in an inning for JO to score. I see advantages for both sides but lean toward the defense along with the OBP.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 05:07 PM) I'm certainly not going to say that a player with a .330 OBP but who can steal 50 bases is more valuable than any number of .330 OBP/.450 SLG types that you can find every offseason. You see... I prefer the player that doesn't have to steal second base -- I prefer the player that's already on second base because he hit a double and doesn't have to worry about stealing second. That puts stress on the pitcher too -- if he gives up a single, he gives up a run. And I'm no way against a player being fast, by the way -- it's a great tool to have. But the people that still think these .270/.330/.350 (but with SPEED!) LFers (or CFers when there's a much better option available -- see Owens, Jerry versus Quentin, Carlos) are in any way good gives me a nice chuckle. This is true depending on the difference between the two players. Is a .05 better OBP worth having the slower guy on base? Here's a thought. How many GIDP did PK have with Pods on in front of him vs. having slower player in front? A faster runner will cause PK's horrible GIDP numbers to be lower, which again only helps the team. Currently, I don't know who is the better player JO or CQ. Obviously, if one is far ahead of the other you pick that one but so far I'm not sure either has.

QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 04:59 PM) Ok, so what are qualified as stressful pitches? And where's the evidence that shows that a high number of said stressful pitches leads to a higher ERA, WHIP, more pitches thrown, or rate of injury? I've never seen any. I'll agree that "statheads" tend to blindly throw stats around without considering any other factors, but you can't just say "this works this way" without any sort of evidence to back it up. Stressful pitches are usually referred to pitches where the pitcher is in trouble of getting scored upon or as the saying goes "he must bear down." The evidence I go by is the reports on how hard the pitcher perceived he was working. Did he feel it was an easy inning or did he need to work hard. It may be physical, it may be mental either way it wears the pitcher out. I know most of the people here disagree and I can't quantify it myself. I'm working on a research project right now with pitchers and I'm throwing around (pun intended) the idea of how to do this. I like looking at the numbers as much as the next baseball fan but there are some things that I've observed that I can't quite prove yet. But worrying about a runner who may steal, whether successful or not does wear on a pitcher. Ask any pitcher who has been in minors or MLB and most will agree that in crucial situations if this type of person is on base they need to work harder and this can only help the opposing team.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 01:43 PM) It's all about the arm. Holding runners from getting from 1st to 3rd on a single. Covering ground fits into that equation as well. If you are slower getting to the ball, the opposition knows to try and get to 3rd on that single to right. While this is true, I think people get far too caught up in the arm strength and throwing runners out. The more important aspect is running down and catching the ball. RF is generally more difficult to play a ball because with more RH hitters the "slicing" ball is more difficult to judge than the more straight trajectory hit "pulling" the ball to left. There are many more chances to catch (or miss) the ball than "holding runners."

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 11:16 AM) If you were constrained by salary, you could certainly make an argument that MB at $13 million a year is more valuable to a team than Johan at $25 million a year. For a team like the Mets clearly they take the better pitcher because they can afford him. The more the salary impinges upon you though, the more you have to worry. Here's one way to think about that. Who wins you more games, Johan Santana plus a $1 million 1st baseman (Ross Gload, Doug Mientkiewicz or someone of that ilk) or Mark Buehrle + Paul Konerko? If you have the salary available to go for Santana and Delgado fine, but if you don't, then it probably makes more sense to spread it around. Unless you have a sh*tload of young guys. This is especially true when you look at the length of the deal. He will not be healthy for the 5-6 years. He had to alter his game last year due to elbow problems. If you figure he's healthy for only 75% of that contract, it really puts a strain on the budget and who will need to take his place.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 09:29 PM) I've seen him play CF and wasn't impressed. I agree. I would prefer to give Anderson another shot as opposed to him.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 06:04 PM) lol i find it so funny that we have FINALLY cut the waste out of the lineup in uribe, pods, and even erstad and owens, and people are still clamoring to find a fit for a guy like owens or crisp....if we want to have crisp on the bench, im fine with that as long as we are able to swap bad contract bench guys like uribe or crede for crisp, that way you swap a 5 mil contract for a 5 mil contract, but are sacrificing good D of the bench at one position for good D off the bench at another (CF, where we need the D) thats an ok deal, but its unlikely to improve our team a whole lot what is likely to improve our team a whole lot is getting cabreras .340 obp in the lineup over uribes .280, swishers .380 over pods/erstad/whoevers .320 and quentin's potential .350-.360 over owens .310-.330 you still need a guy in the mold of crisp or owens at the top of the lineup. Say what you will about the "numbers and OBP" is all that matters but I'll bet if you look at the past WS winners most of them had that type of player at the top. Red Sox: Ellsbury Cards: Eckstein White Sox: Pods Red Sox Damon Marlins: Pierre Angles: Eckstein D-backs: Womack

QUOTE(NCsoxfan @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 04:47 PM) Is it just me, or have teams gotten more in return for worse pitchers? Who got more the A's for Haren or the Twins for Santana? Part of the deal was that Santana wouldn't waive his no trade clause unless he got the deal he wanted from the team. There is always more to a deal than the talent that each team recieves. Boston or NY may not have wanted to give him the years or money he wanted due to the elbow injury and lack of slider because of it last year. Santana supposedly turned down 100 mil for 5 years. I wouldn't give him that many years.

QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 01:35 PM) Speed is only a significant threat if the base stealer has a success rate near or over 75%. Otherwise the player's speed has little effect. Personally, I feel speed has the greatest effect in being able to go from first to third or second to home on a single. Especially if the team or the hitters coming to bat struggle with RiSP. Thank You Bill James for the rhetoric about base stealing is only effective with a 75% success rate. I won't argue the numbers for base stealing. My point is that speed or even the threat of speed has a much greater effect on the game than the numbers can analyze. Look at the number of stressful pitches the starter threw or the number of pickoff attempts. All of these have a greater impact on the pitcher than just the OBP guy.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 28, 2008 -> 10:20 PM) I agree its very overrated. The leadoff hitter is only guaranteed to leadoff once, but he will bat at least as much as anyone in the lineup. Its more important to get a guy who can get on base, and let the 2,3, 4 hitter do their jobs. Even when Pods was supposedly spectacular, didn't Iguchi have to give himself up a lot? You're taking pitches ,getting behind in the count so the guy can get to second. I still disagree. While the "speedster" only leads off once, he creates a distraction for the pitcher whenever he is on base. That's why agree they need to get on base at a decent clip but the threat to steal drives pitchers crazy. Especially in today's game with so many people following the James rule where spped doesn't matter, the ones who can create a distraction are even more effective. Even having the player caught stealing wore the pitcher down more by having him throwing over to first (which wears a pitcher out more with the twisting motion). This will effect the overall game that doesn't sho up in the number of runs scored, OBP and whatever else you want to analyze. In the end getting the pitcher out of the game sooner may be more effective. OBP from the leadoff spot is obviously important because he will have on average more plate appearances than anyone else, but how much of a difference do you need to negate the effect of the speed is a real conundrum. It is also one that polarizes people, they either think it helps or don't. I for one believe it has a great impact on the game. The scenario you state above should only happen early in games to get a lead or toward the end of close games when one run truly matters.

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Jan 28, 2008 -> 11:48 PM) I am not sure what a B/C level prospect is, but if we ever traded Crede it better be for major league ready prospects or someone already on tghe roster and ready to step in as a top notch player. Personally I think Crede should be signed to a long term deal. Crede alone will not get us much of a high prospect or MLB ready prospect. The reasons are: 1. coming off back surgery and 2. he is a one year rent a player due to the impending free agency and the tough negotiations that will follow with Boras. I think we will get a high prospect or MLB ready pitcher because we will be packaged with others such as Anderson. The return will be a pitcher. KW trades for a targeted player not what the other team wants to offer and right now I think KW wants to acquire pitching. His position players are pretty well set.

QUOTE(scenario @ Jan 28, 2008 -> 02:45 PM) IMO, we shoulda seen if we coulda flipped him back to the Cubs for Neal Cotts... then had Cotts compete with Thornton and Logan for a bullpen spot.... but that's just me. With that awful year he had in the NL he can't possibly pitch in the AL

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 28, 2008 -> 11:01 AM) Yep -- Owens is all of (~)4 months younger than Nick Swisher, to put things into perspective a bit. And no, it's completely unreasonable to think Owens is capable of a .370 or .380 OBP. His minor league OBP was .362, and that's despite the fact that he was old for his level every step of the way. That doesn't even mention his terrible slugging percentage. He's nothing more than a 4th outfielder, but for some reason Sox fans seem to equate 'speedy' and 'slap-hitty' with 'good'. He was old in age only. He had less experience for his age due to his football career. He was probably progressing at a proper rate for experience. I think he will do fine and be better than a 4th outfielder. He played acceptable CF defense last year after everyone touted his defense as not playable in CF. I think he will learn and be a good MLB player.

I wonder if he's part of a deal with Crede. The rumor has Crede going to SF. Maybe the deal is Crede/Anderson and another player for Cain or one of the others? The deal may be contingent on both players showing they are healthy. That would explain how he knows it's a NL team.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 28, 2008 -> 11:49 AM) I fail to see how history proved you right. You can side with the team, but I'll side with the doctors I've heard comment on back surgery numerous times before. These are guys who love the idea of surgery, they make a living off it - and yet, they are all very avoidant of it until all other paths have been exhausted. I just can't hold this against Joe. The Sox team doctors do not make a living off doing surgery. Some orthopedic surgeons will but not the guys affiliated with a team. They are usually bashed for waiting too long to do surgery. The whole scenario boiled down to the fact the everyone knew he most likely would need surgery but he elected to try to go without. You can't blame him because back surgery is risky. however, with the symptoms he had, the duration of the symptoms and his occupation (needing to rotate his trunk violently to swing a bat) he most likely needed surgery. I'm a big proponent of avoiding back surgery at all costs but in his case there was little chance of it happening. In the end the decision cost the Sox because they were without him and they couldn't trade him last year. The player had his choice and he picked the wrong one because he missed almost an entire year of playing.

Moronotti does his job very well. He writes whatever he feels like and incites a controversy and attracts attention. He is not a good writer and doesn't let the facts get in the way, but the purpose of a columnist is to attract attention. He isn't a beat writer whose job it is to report on the team.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jan 25, 2008 -> 11:31 AM) I don't! All hail Frank Thomas. That's for damned sure. You are right too, our entire team refusing piss tests is what got the stronger tests/punishments instilled in the first place. That could have been included in Jay's article... The Sox players did not refuse the tests. They talked about it but bowed to Union pressure.

Show me the mountains and the ski slopes!!! The more I deal with professional athletes the more I dislike people.

He always has been one of the rumors. Look at his body and performance. Fringe player in low minors and all of a sudden wins the batting title and takes off. None of it is hard evidence of course but he has always been one of the suspects. As has another former Sox outfielder who is from the West coast, is a gym fanatic and just signed a huge money deal in the offseason.

Most entertaining game was when the Bears and Raiders beat the crap out of each other so bad that the quarterbacks were Ray Guy and Walter Payton. A great game was a game in Milwaukee where the game went into the ninth scoreless and Jerry Hairston Sr. hit a pinch hit HR in the top with 2 outs and Bob James got the save in the bottom of the ninth. Another was the 26 inning game against Milwaukee spread out over two days. Of course Game 2 of the WS with the PK Slam, Jenks giving up the tying runs and the Pods HR to win (and almost getting the HR ball) will always be the top baseball game. I can't imagine anything better than that.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 18, 2008 -> 01:44 PM) I would love this deal because it's only a 2 year deal. 5.5 is a lot of money for a reliever who has been injured for a while now but it's only a 2 year deal, it's not a contract that would be haunting us for a few years. It would also add more depth to the pen, having Jenks, Linebrink, Thornton, MacDougal, Dotel, Wasserman, Logan, lots of options there. I would rather overpay in a short term deal than sign any pitcher to a long term deal.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 18, 2008 -> 07:49 AM) Wow. My initial reaction to this is good. That's a pretty solid backend of the pen, even having injury considerations for Dotel. Its smart of Kenny to add bullpen arms when you are looking at the pen doing a lot more work this year versus recent years past. I still don't hink Ozzie will use his bullpen anymore than in past years. However, no matter which way you look at it, a good bullpen will make a good manager and a bad pen will make a bad manager.

Another good move to address the team's biggest weakness.

QUOTE(Heartattack19 @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 04:25 PM) Charlie O'Brien played for the sox the first part of 1998, i think he was the first White Sox Catcher to wear the Hockey style catcher's mask. God, Mike Bertotti, Todd Rizzo, Pat Daneker, Chris Clemons, Nelson Cruz, why do i still remember these names, for some reason i still have a Larry Thomas card hanging on my bulletin board. It has been there so long, i think it would be illegal to take it down! Not only was he the first one to wear it, he invented it. He got together with a company that made the hockey masks and helped develop it for baseball. I've got a game used bat from him. Bobby Bonds is probably the worst guy I can think of. I don't dislike pplayers if they are bad but try. I dislike them if they are asses. The apple didn't fall far from the tree!!!!