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QUOTE(almagest @ Feb 26, 2008 -> 05:13 PM) Myth. Crede has had exactly 1.5 (2002 and 2006) seasons where he's produced at or slightly above the expected level for a MLB third baseman offensively. Every other year, he's been mediocre ('00, '03, '05) to putrid ('01, '04, '07). 1.5 good years and 3 mediocre years vs. 2 putrid years. (2007 doesn't count he only played about 1/4 of the season). That sounds decent to me which is what I said he was.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Feb 26, 2008 -> 04:27 PM) Do you know what is difficult, trying to convince the Crede's fanboys on this site that their guy is going to move. The evidence is overwhelming and the reasons to keep him are minimal at best. The amazing thing is the amount of moves that people have put in place to shuffle everyone around, like Crede is some central player that you build a team around. I love the fact that people gloss over the fact that Joe is represented by Scott Boras. The amazing amount of written history on the relationship between Boras and the whitesox should be enough to realize that a long term deal isnt going to happen unless Joe fires his agent. And why would he do that. He just went through an injury that scares him and his family and he wants to max out years and money just in case his back messes up again. You cant blame him. I shudder to think of the reaction to when Joe is moved. The fanboys will call into stations, ask for Kenny's head, and then hate on Josh Fields because their pet is moved. Kind of like the hate that Thome gets from the Rowand fan boys. I would suggest that you buy a 2005 WS DVD and keep it on infinite replay so you can enjoy Joe for the rest of your life. If you want to see him in the future, you may have to fly out to San Francisco. But look at the bright side, you can get a 2 for one crush treat there. I think I'm probably one of Crede's biggest fans because of his defense and decent hitting. I still think defense and pitching are the keys to winning. however, given the fact the Boras is the agent and the price he will command, I'm ready to begin the Fields era. Realism is more important than getting attached to a player. I am a White Sox and baseball fan. As much as you want to get attached to a player, the improvement of the team is the most important aspect. IMHO

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Feb 25, 2008 -> 01:57 PM) Funny in the wayback machine, we were talking about how much of a stud that Ventura was and how Crede wasn't near his offensive prowess and how could Crede take over for the defensive wizardry that Ventura showed. Now a few years later, people act like Crede was a gold glover coming up. In 2002 Crede received his first taste of the big leagues, he had a 2.36 RF9(Range Factor for 9 innings played) with a zone rating of .766 while Fields had a 2.69 with a zone rating of .713. Crede had 8 errors in 53 games while Fields had 9 errors in 79 games. The almighty's Fielding Percentage was .938 for the god of Gold Glove while Fields has a .958. So as much as we remember the DVD's and the Hawk comparisons to Brooks Robinson, Mr. Crede wasnt Brooks out of the gate like some people believe. This is true. In the minors Crede was known as a good hit-no field 3B. As was Ventura at OSU.

wins vs. loses

QUOTE(lostfan @ Feb 22, 2008 -> 07:32 AM) No I'm not naive at all. The agent does all the work but the final decision on where he goes and what he does is up to the player, not the agent. If a player wants to give a hometown discount to stay in their city they will do it. A player that will do that is few and far between with this type of agent. Some agents listen to players more than others. Boras is not one of them.

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Feb 22, 2008 -> 07:57 AM) just another example of how dayn perry hates the whi...oh, wait. He does seem to dislike alot of what KW does to put him in the top 10. I guess you can hate the moves but can't argue with the results. Only one losing season and a World Series Championship.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Feb 22, 2008 -> 07:06 AM) HE works for THEM. They tell him what to do. And if you think that's the way it always works, you are naive. How many times have you heard a player say "that's why I hired an agent, to do that work for me." Not all agents take control but many convince the players they know best and"just let me handle it." This is similar to the players have a say in who runs the union. In theory they do but in practice, the leaders of the union decide who they want and tell the players they should vote for the guy. And by the why there is no one else to run against him.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Feb 21, 2008 -> 11:13 AM) Crede will have value in June if he hits reasonably well in April and May and doesn't suffer any physical setbacks. Until then, his value will be pretty limited. Crede will have value in Spring training. Everyone knows what type of player he is. In ST the GMs and scouts will only look to see if he has changed his swing or fielding mechanics due to the back problems/surgery. They don't care if he is hitting against AA or MLB pitchers. They know what he can do and will only look to see if his mechanics have changed during live pitching.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Feb 18, 2008 -> 09:52 PM) Believe me, it's appreciated. I wish I understood more of this. But by "full recovery", you mean a temporary one, right? Because it sounds like this WILL come up again. As in, he'll probably make it through 2008, but the clock's ticking. And given that it was a double-level procedure, probably faster than it otherwise would. Is that right? i would agree with all of that. His recovery should be full for now. however, there is no telling how long he will be painfree or near painfree. If he's smart he will continue with the exercises and maintain his full level of activity for as long as possible. But eventually he will have problems again, it may not be during his playing career but I would bet that they will be.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Feb 18, 2008 -> 11:32 AM) I was hoping you'd make it into this thread. I wanted to ask -- since Crede was having trouble with two discs, does that mean he would have had the double-level procedure? I can't find any definitive info on this. You know me I live for the injury aspect. Yes, that's exactly what it means. It is obviously more involved than a single level but again if it could be done as a partial microdiscectomy the tissue involvement was minimal and he had a better chance for a full recovery (which he has). He should be fine for awhile. Hermie worked with him to make him aware of his spine during fielding and batting. He just needs to be vigilant to make the most of his career before he has problems again.

QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Feb 18, 2008 -> 07:46 PM) I can't believe walker's getting bashed already and position players haven't even reported yet. I do love baseball.... It's an epidemic in this town. If the team performs poorly blame the coaches or management. It's never the fault of the players. The coaches just can't coach the players properly.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2008 -> 02:28 PM) IIRC the danger in Crede's surgery wasn't if it would take or anything like that, but rather the delacacy of the back that nerves could be damaged in the process or something along those lines. It appears he's OK. I really don't know how long Crede's back has been an issue. It is possible its been a problem his entire major league career, and possible he is now healthier than he has ever been. I think the White Sox will really regret letting him go if they get garbage in return. It's pretty rare that a nerve is injured during a microdisectomy. The success rate of this surgery is high if the patint is chosen properly. Crede fit the criteria for this procedure. One of the first professional athletes to have it was Joe Montana. He had it toward the end of his 49er career. The surgery and recovery for the surgery is relatively easy. There is minimal invasion of tissues and he had been on a rehab program prior to surgery so he was strong. The significant issue is wear and tear on the spine. The constant bending during fielding and rotation swinging a bat will continue to put and excessive amount of force on already weakened tissue. His injury and subsequent surgery will definitely shorten his career. Once you have a lumbar spine problem it is a question of managing it. It never totally goes away. He may be mostly painfree for 2 years or 8 years but it will eventually return. I hope for Joe's sake that he can play at least another 6-8 years. He is one of the good guys in the game.

QUOTE(knightni @ Feb 11, 2008 -> 08:40 PM) Who is G-Rod? Blagojevich? Wouldn't R-Bla be better? Because he is Bla!!!!

Another advantage to this type of weapon is that with no "explosion" to launch it, the launch is difficult to detect and thus becomes a stealth weapon to surprise it's victims.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 01:54 PM) I don't know if his winter workload had any effect on his 2007 season, I just found it funny that the White Sox use 12 extra games in October has such a profound effect on the entire pitching staff, and then start spouting off about a guy who pitched an extra 20-25 games in November and December. It wasn't consistent. Unless Masset can cut down his walk rate, he can add 10 MPH on his fastball and he will still suck. You look at history and it shows how starting pitching usually suffers the following year. It's not just the number of innings but the "stressful" innings. I do agree with Masset could have been effected by the winter innings depending on his workload the season before. Too much during winter ball can definately make a difference.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 08:41 PM) Pitching is more important, and I recall the 2005 team hitting 200 home runs and homering in all but 2 playoff games. Sorry, I was referring to the offensive side. Pitching is always the most important factor. Which is why I consider the speed and defense the more important part of the position player role.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 08:41 PM) Pitching is more important, and I recall the 2005 team hitting 200 home runs and homering in all but 2 playoff games. Sorry, I was referring to the offensive side. Pitching is always the most important factor. Which is why I consider the speed and defense the more important part of the position player role.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 04:07 PM) I played the OF for several years. Usually in CF, but I did play RF and a couple in LF. Major leaguers should not have problems with that. Balls hit right at them, or knuckling, perhaps, but slices and hooks aren't difficult to judge. If they are having problems with that, I will say they shouldn't be getting paid millions of dollars to be out there, and obviously there are quite a few guys who are not good outfielders, but because the are fast they get away with it, or because they hit well, their lack of defense is tolerated. IMO, just because a ball may slice off a RH hitters bat to RF, isn't the reason its generally considered tougher to play than LF. Its the throws. OFs throw the ball to 2nd,3rd and home. The RF has it a lot harder than the LF in that department. Ok, we can disagree then. My experience with working in the minors and MLB was that many players have trouble reading the ball off the bat and take poor routes. Not the best ones of course but many of them did. The ones hit right at them make them look the silliest and are the toughest.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 04:02 PM) Is owens really a defensive specialist though? Cabrera i can see having that claim. Konerko for cabrera straight up? The team trading konerko would easily net cabrera and the other player thrown into the mix would seemingly have to be much better than owens at the major league level. to make it even close. Owens seems like a legitimate fifth outfielder/4a type player and nothing more, but with time we shall see. Your point is accurate. I was referring more to the type of players as opposed to the actual players. The jury is still out on JO. If it were these players at this point in their careers PK is the choice. I know I'm in the minority but I think speed and defense will win in the playoffs and world series more than the HR.

Tiger Woods. I would like to live and even walk past the age of 50.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 03:31 PM) Player b, konerko in this case, would win in a land slide, each and every single time. Owens has to rely on himself and his teamates just to get into second, and later on score. Konerko (player b/ whoever you wish to imagine) relies on no on other than himself to touch all four bases. For some reason i think a homerun just might be a bigger rattle to a pitcher than someone stealing a base. On base percentage is a great thing and all but you need people to slug them home time from time. People always say that you cannot rely on a homerun.... but more so the same goes for sitting back and waiting for the ''small ball'' approach (yes, i know that won it all for the white sox in 2005). I think most people would agree with you. Chicks and GMs did the long ball. This will also drive his price up. Would PK be worth more than JO and Orlando Cabrera? Two speed and defense vs. one HR guy? I'M SO DAMN CONFUSED!!!! That's why I love baseball and it's offseason!!!!!

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 03:30 PM) While a ball slices if its hit down the line and hit a certain way, the same thing happens down the LF line with LH hitters and RH hitters the ball will hook. The reason RF is more difficult in general, obviously ballpark configuration and sun and wind can change this, is the throws. Very rarely does a LF have to throw the ball to 1B. The throw to 3rd is a lot more difficult from RF. Besides, anyone who has played the OF regularly will have figured out "slices and hooks" especially major leaguers. If that's difficult for them, they shouldn't be out there. I disagree. The better outfielders can figure this out but not all of them. The harder the ball is hit the less hook or slice it will have. Think about a curve ball vs. a slider. The harder thrown ball (slider) will break less. In the outfield the same concept applies. The harder its hit, usually the pulled ball, the less it will move. The slicing ball will move more. There are many games where the outfielder took "the wrong route" to the ball. It happens almost every game. It's not because the didn't see it, it's because they read it wrong. This happens all of the time. when you watch games. It's alot more difficult than most people think because of how hard the ball is hit.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 02:38 PM) The problem of course is that the OBP isn't the only part of the equation. If you give me 2 guys with identical slugging numbers, one steals 50 bases at an 80% clip but has a .1 lower OBP than a guy who steals 2, of course you take the 50 steals guy. But if the guy with the higher OBP also has a significantly higher slugging percentage and hits a lot more home runs...well, if Konerko and Owens had identical OBP's, Owens stole 60 bases, Konerko bopped 40 home runs, which one would you pick? This is a question I always go crazy thinking about and the only way I can answer it is to take the easy way out: it depends on the make up of the rest of the team. I always lean towards pitching and defense. In that case the speedster hopefully (although not always) provides that extra defense at either the outfield or middle infield which is important. The other side is a high OBP doesn't necessarily mean much in the playoffs because there is a lower OBP across the board due to the fact that you don't get to face the other teams 4-5 starters 40% of the time that you do in the regular season. Santana may make one mistake that PK can hit for the homer but you may not get the 2 base hits you need in an inning for JO to score. I see advantages for both sides but lean toward the defense along with the OBP.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 05:07 PM) I'm certainly not going to say that a player with a .330 OBP but who can steal 50 bases is more valuable than any number of .330 OBP/.450 SLG types that you can find every offseason. You see... I prefer the player that doesn't have to steal second base -- I prefer the player that's already on second base because he hit a double and doesn't have to worry about stealing second. That puts stress on the pitcher too -- if he gives up a single, he gives up a run. And I'm no way against a player being fast, by the way -- it's a great tool to have. But the people that still think these .270/.330/.350 (but with SPEED!) LFers (or CFers when there's a much better option available -- see Owens, Jerry versus Quentin, Carlos) are in any way good gives me a nice chuckle. This is true depending on the difference between the two players. Is a .05 better OBP worth having the slower guy on base? Here's a thought. How many GIDP did PK have with Pods on in front of him vs. having slower player in front? A faster runner will cause PK's horrible GIDP numbers to be lower, which again only helps the team. Currently, I don't know who is the better player JO or CQ. Obviously, if one is far ahead of the other you pick that one but so far I'm not sure either has.

QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 04:59 PM) Ok, so what are qualified as stressful pitches? And where's the evidence that shows that a high number of said stressful pitches leads to a higher ERA, WHIP, more pitches thrown, or rate of injury? I've never seen any. I'll agree that "statheads" tend to blindly throw stats around without considering any other factors, but you can't just say "this works this way" without any sort of evidence to back it up. Stressful pitches are usually referred to pitches where the pitcher is in trouble of getting scored upon or as the saying goes "he must bear down." The evidence I go by is the reports on how hard the pitcher perceived he was working. Did he feel it was an easy inning or did he need to work hard. It may be physical, it may be mental either way it wears the pitcher out. I know most of the people here disagree and I can't quantify it myself. I'm working on a research project right now with pitchers and I'm throwing around (pun intended) the idea of how to do this. I like looking at the numbers as much as the next baseball fan but there are some things that I've observed that I can't quite prove yet. But worrying about a runner who may steal, whether successful or not does wear on a pitcher. Ask any pitcher who has been in minors or MLB and most will agree that in crucial situations if this type of person is on base they need to work harder and this can only help the opposing team.