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QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:45 AM) A totally safe budget, without any drains, will net you last place in your division. But I know some would cry this October if they thought we won a World Series with Hunter and his terrible contract, or Rowand, or any of the others. Fourth place and "good contracts" W00t I would disagree with that. Listening to most people on this board, we are going to have the second highest payroll in the division and we are assured of last place this year. Look at the teams of recent vintage in the playoffs. Many low budget teams. It's not how much you spend but it's spending enough and spending it WISELY. I don't think a 7 year contract for any pitcher is wise. I understand the wanting to get the best players at any cost. But it's just my bias from working with players and injuries.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:34 AM) Those guys had nowhere near the success that Santana has had so far. You can't base it on health alone, in that case, everyone would only sign one year deals. He has the same chance of injury every year. All of them had varying degrees of success especially Kevin Brown. However, talent isn't the point, the point is the odds of any pitcher staying healthy over the length of a contract that long isn't great. Too much of a chance.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) Normally, I'd agree with you. But Santana is something special. He's still young and already a very accomplished pitcher. People said the same thing about Denny Neagle, Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez.... I'm not saying he isn't the best just that the odds of him actually staying healthy for even half the contract isn't good. since you will only be able to insure half of it, that will be a major drain on any budget.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 09:10 AM) Yep. I agree. He's worth it. No pitcher is worth a 7 year deal. Look at the history of those long term deals, I can't think of any that have worked out. I have no problem offering 25 mil for 4 years but I would never sign a pitcher for more than 4 years.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 14, 2007 -> 10:02 PM) And we don't have a 2nd rounder taking away our hope that KW might think he could drop to us in the 2nd round. We have two third basemen and we're letting go of all of our young 1B so either we're banking on Kong for awhile or looking to trade him and get a 1B back (unless we think Smoak is our guy and will fall to us). We have enough young pitching that is filled with "top of the rotation guys" according to KW's assessment of what other GMs think. Sounds like we're set up to get an OF since that's our biggest need now and guess who is an OF with "all" the qualities you listed above and "all" the qualities we are looking for...the Grinder Danks! Didn't we just sign him to a 5 year deal that has three left on it? That would be banking on him. Here is a question for the thread. Since everyone is stating that we have nothing in the farm system, one way to correct that would be to draft the safer, more projectable guys and not the high risk high reward guys. The other option is draft the high risk-high reward guys and take the chance that the system is devoid of talent for a longer time. It's a dilemma that I haven't quite decided which way to go.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 14, 2007 -> 03:13 PM) Just for fun, Keith Law's top-20 (looks decent from what I can tell other than Alvarez being #5 instead of #1): 1. Isaac Galloway OF, Los Osos HS, Rancho Cucamonga, Calif. 2. Aaron Hicks OF, Wilson HS, Long Beach, Calif. 3. Justin Smoak 1B, University of South Carolina 4. Brian Matusz LHP, University of San Diego Anaheim 5. Pedro Alvarez 3B, Vanderbilt 6. Brett Wallace 1B, Arizona State 7. Eric Hosmer 1B, American Heritage HS, Plantation, Fla. 8. Lance Lynn RHP, University of Mississippi 9. Daniel Webb RHP, Heath HS, W. Paducah, Ky. 10. Yonder Alonso 1B, University of Miami (Fla.) 11. Brett DeVall LHP, Rutherford HS, Panama City, Fla. 12. Cody Satterwhite RHP, University of Mississippi 13. Brandon Crawford SS, UCLA 14. Ethan Martin 3B, Stephens County HS, Toccoa, Ga. 15. James Darnell RF/3B, University of South Carolina 16. Jemile Weeks 2B, University of Miami (Fla.) 17. Harold Martinez SS/3B, Braddock HS, Miami, Fla. 18. Tyson Ross RHP, University of California 19. Jacob Thompson RHP, University of Virginia 20. Jordan Danks OF, University of Texas If this is accurrate, what an awful year for pitching. Only 7 in the top 20?

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 01:52 PM) I am saying you HAVE to do a blood test to show HGH. Missed test or not. And no sport currently allows for that. That will be a tough sell. there is no current test for HGH other than a blood test and as I said before no union will agree to it.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 01:34 PM) Yeah, a fractured vert and removing a disc is serious though. Hes worth a shot as a 1B/DH but anywhere else is an injury risk. It's really the rotation of the swing that would concern me more.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 12:35 PM) Vertebrae. I believe its considered more serious than Crede's not really. It sounds like a spondylolithesis. This is where one of the vertebrae is slipping froward on another causing stress, disc and nerve problems. This problem can be fixed through bone grafts and hardware to correct the slipping. It's like someone says "a fracture is better than a sprain" because the bone will heal stronger than the ligament. Same principle. It would be a similar surgery and rehab. Just the added 6-8 weeks of bone healing. The rehab for just a disc surgery would overlap this time frame anyway. He should have a good recovery, as good as chance as anyone with lumbar surgery.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 12:00 PM) No, because there is no empirical evidence that any of these guys did roids. They have no tested positive, and some of them were only named because the Mitchell investigators asked interviewees who they "thought" was on steroids. There never will be empirical evidence. Most of them will be linked to HGH. HGH can only be detected through blood tests, currently. No union allows blood tests, including the NFL. This is why it can all be refuted and there will never be proof.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 11:58 AM) Hes a 1B. The 3B hopes are all but gone, his back is worse than Crede's frankly. He would be a good DH/1B for a team to take a flier on. Anyone know what his back problem was or what type of surgery he had? I'm not familiar with what happened.

QUOTE(rockren @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) I've always said this to my friends. KW's immaturity shows how average his intelligence really is. He's no smarter than Joe Schmoe down the street. I know a lot of brilliant people are arrogant, but KW doesn't fall under that category with me. Actually, the behavior most people associate with "immaturity" can be a sign of intelligence not average intelligence. It comes from getting frustrated when other of less intelligence around you cannot understand or comprehend what you are saying or doing. Not to say that KW is necessarily intelligent but your assumption that immaturity=average intelligence is inaccurrate.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 10:13 AM) I do understand that you can't protect everyone. But I'd like to know why you choose to protect Andy Gonzalez over Fernando Hernandez. They probably didn't consider either worth keeping. If Hernandez was protected, he probably would have been the one non-tendered instead of Gonzalez. Either way both would be gone from the system as it appears they have other plans for that roster spot. So it really doesn't matter who was protected and who wasn't, they were both on the bottom of the totem pole.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 07:18 AM) So lets see, KW has a team that was 6 losses away from being the worst in baseball on the major league level. His farm system ranks next to last in baseball. He has the payroll up over $100 million, and he thinks the upgrade of Cabrera over Uribe, Quentin, Linebrink plus a CF like Crisp while taking away Garland from the rotation and putting Floyd and Danks in there for a full season will cure all that ails this team. He is arrogant I'll give him that. Probably not very smart either. Do you honestly believe that none of Dye, Konerko and Thome will hit above .274? They all had bad seasons last year if none of them rebound I don't care what he added in the offseason the team will be bad. If at least two of them do the team will be better than last year.

QUOTE(retro1983hat @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 09:01 AM) Yes, KW was the architect responsible for the giant fall our team has had since the ASB 2006. He deserves credit for 2005, but also blame for 2006, 2007 and our last-place 2008 finish. Didn't the Sox win 90 games in 2006? I hardly call that a failure for which he needs to be fired. You can use opinion and revisionist history but ultimately he will be judged on his record. I'm not sure what the White Sox record is under his tenure but I would suspect it is a a pretty good winning percentage.

The locker room rumors of recent vintage were Mags and Rowand.

QUOTE(bighurt4life @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 11:40 PM) Sounds to me like we're about to trade minor league players for someone who's going to be on the 25 man roster, or else why keep those guys around and not protect some of the players taken in rule 5? Maybe because they didn't believe the guys taken in the Rule 5 draft were worth keeping.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:43 AM) ESPN RADIO: ROGER CLEMENS!!!!! HAHAHAHA He is the one that has always been talked about in the locker rooms. Since he looks to be retired, maybe he will be in it but I still doubt it.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 09:11 PM) I'd put money on it that 15-20 players named will be no name Mets bench players. (AKA: Timo) There's going to be an awful lot of disappointed people when the report is made public tomorrow. Yes. 80 names only when over 100 tested positive alone during the "trial" drug testing in 2003. Most of the names that truly used will not be in there. My guess is mostly retired players who this won't effect.

I think too many people are sellling Brain Anderson short. He will be a good MLB player but I'm not sure if it will be with this team.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 02:49 PM) 5 year deal, mlb.com is reporting. I've never been happier to not acquire a player. Time to get creative KW. Interesting timing as well. I agree. This would not have been the piece to help the Sox.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 09:43 AM) The count is a real simple formula. You can pretty much tell what kind of outing he will have based on his arm slot versus righties. If he is mainly arm slot high, dropping down on 2 strikes to put the hitter away he will be good; if he is mainly side arm to righties, he will get rocked. Hopefully the Count is energized and is working out his lower half and his back. I still believe that there was a back issue last year, there is no reason for a pitcher to completely change his mechanics this far into ones career unless you are compensating for an injury. Dropping down is a classic back or leg stress reliever. I would rather see him up top more so he can get more of a downward action on his splitter and keep his fastball within the zone. If he does that, he should be a pretty good pitcher. Dropping down can also be a compensation for shoulder pain. When the humeral head rides up and compresses into the acromion the rotator cuff, bursa and labrum become pinched. If a pitcher starts to drop down there is usually an injury to one of these tissues. However since JC as always had this in his arsenal I wouldn't worry about it. Dropping down also decreases pitch velocity while increasing lateral movement on the pitch, this becomes the slider injury to the elbow. In retrospect I think this is what happened to Garcia.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 02:11 PM) Serious question here... because so many people seem to have this opinion, would you all rather return to the Ron Schuler years where we'd maybe make one decent trade a winter, but you could pretty much be assured that we wouldn't be after any major players? I know the knock on Kenny is all of the sudden is that he is "missing" on all of the players, but the fact that he is chasing them, even when the odds are against him in all of these cases just tells me he is willing to try to do whatever it takes to try to improve. Think about it. Torii Hunter was supposedly going to get blown away from this huge offer from Texas. You all heard the impression Kenny made on Hunter, and how close he was to coming here. Miguel Cabrera was supposedly going to the Angels. In steps Kenny, and he was leading the race, until Florida changed the terms and insisted we take on Dontrelle Willis. Fukudome was supposedly only going to consider the Cubs, yet Kenny goes out and matches the Cubs offer, only to fail because the guy wanted to pad his own ego with the #1 and having to play RF, plus being the #1 Japanese player on the northside. What do these all have in common? Kenny fought for all three of the guys dispite the odds. A guy like Ron Schuler would have never been heard from on any of these stages. He would have been happy to plug in some rookies, and some type b/c free agents, and move on having no expecations of anything for the next season. Its insane to hold someone's work ethic against them. Its almost like people would be happier if we weren't ever mentioned at all in connection with players. Give me the guy going for the gold ring, instead of the guy who is content to see how long he can go around on the merri-go-round. i wholehearted agree. I don't think some of the people here remember the schuler era or like me have chosen to wipe it out of my mind.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 11:42 AM) Williams won't be fired. Look up "Jerry Krause" for details.... that's right. As long as your loyal, have a plan and are successful, you will be around. If KW has multiple unsuccessful years ala JK then he will be gone, not after only a few bad seasons. The Sox had back to back 90 win seasons before last year. Now we need to see how the next 2-3 go before KW is in danger of losing his job.

QUOTE(scenario @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 07:30 PM) Why would it be a bad PR move?? Would ticket sales go down? Would people write fewer stories about the Sox or give us less attention in the media? Would it undo all the goodwill that KW and Ozzie have been building? Besides, we've got alot of 'boyscouts' on our team. I don't think adding Bonds would taint the public image of our club that badly. People didn't hate the Giants because he played in San Francisco. They may not like the player, but it's unlikely to carry over to the team. And as VanceLaw said... winning is great PR. The bad PR would be that next to only maybe Gary Sheffield he is the biggest piece of crap of a human being I've ever met in professional sports and that's saying alot. You couldn't find a person (and I use that term lightly) that would anger an entire fan base quickly. I guarantee any knowledgeable fan would dislike him as soon as he started playing.