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QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 09:18 PM) I'm going to counter this argument with one simple line of thought. Just because other people do something or did something doesn't mean it's ok. I agree with this and would also add that from a medical perspective vaseline balls will not harm your body. I am ethically against using something that can kill you or someone else. Do you think Wil Cordero's wife appreciated the telephone upside the head treatment from the rage? This type of cheating is not just Breaking the rules of a game it is endangering the life of the user and others around them.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 08:28 PM) The thing that stands out to me here is that "their bullpen is of the worst in baseball. How do you figure that? Joel Zumaya, 23 and already has proven to be top talent throwing over 100MPH quite often. Todd Jones, 39, their closer, a member of the 300 save club, and yes I realize he is aging and has had an up and down career but you can't really call this guy "bad" compared to some relievers we have. Fransisco Rodney, 30, set-up man, yes he had Tommy John surgery after the 03' campaign, but with a mid-90's fastball and a devastating change-up, this guy is able to dazzle hitters. So really you cannot call this bullpen bad, at all compared to ours. We have 1 trusty bullpen guy in closer Bobby Jenks. They have 3 proven guys. Zumaya is out for most if not all of the year with an injured knee from moving boxes when those CA fires came near his house.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 08:59 AM) It's funny, but I was trying sort that out in my mind just a few minutes ago. If I remember correctly, House worked with Prior ... and Marshall was very critical of House's methods. This is correct. House (who began his coaching career in the south suburbs) worked alot with Prior. There are many people (including myself) who do not agree with his conditioning and training methods. These are the "towel drills" and throwing a football to work on your curveball drills.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 07:54 PM) Am I missing things, or wasn't the whole idea of Garland's turnaround with Ozzie that Garland wasn't kept on a short leash, where Manuel would pull him at the first sign of trouble, Ozzie supposedly let him work thorugh his problems and actually gain confidence that he could get through a jam. Or at least that's what I kept reading back in 05. this is what I believe is one of Ozzie's strengths. He allows his pitcher's to prove or sink themselves. Many times on this board people scream "why is Ozzie putting X in that position, he hasn't proved himself yet." Ozzie allows the player enough rope to either prove themselves or hang themselves. Sisco, Massett and the like last hung themselves. We'll see what happens with Wassermann, Logan (who has proven he can be somewhat effective) and whoever else is in the pen. As far as the starting staff goes, I think Ozzie's patience will benefit Danks and to a greater extent Floyd. Floyd has the stuff, we'll know soon enough if he can prove he belongs in the show.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:22 AM) If the Whitesox are going to be competitive they have two options. Option 1 - Spend and spend and spend. Go out and acquire top free agent talent to try to compete. This would mean mending fences with Boras and actually pursuing big name free agents. This is a very unlikely option as long as JR owns the team, the Sox cannot spend at the level of the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Angels, or Tigers. Option 2 - Tear the house down and build it up again. Move the veteran players on the roster for youngsters that are not major league ready to maximize the return value that you can receive. Cut the payroll at least in half and use the money that is saved to sign draft picks, international players, and the rule 5 draft. Grow the team from the minor league system and then add in some free agent veterans to plug in holes. They never spend money on big-time free agents like the time didn't sign Albert Belle to one of the biggest FA contracts of that time. It sucks that the JR wouldn't approve that.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:34 AM) Those guys had nowhere near the success that Santana has had so far. You can't base it on health alone, in that case, everyone would only sign one year deals. He has the same chance of injury every year. Not as he gets older and continues to pile on the 200 innings per year. Every pitcher 's should will degenerate and as you get older it will not heal as well. Good mechanics or not the shoulder and elbow take a beating. He doesn't have the same chance every year it increases exponentially every year. That's why I say 4 years max because no one will go year to year.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:45 AM) A totally safe budget, without any drains, will net you last place in your division. But I know some would cry this October if they thought we won a World Series with Hunter and his terrible contract, or Rowand, or any of the others. Fourth place and "good contracts" W00t I would disagree with that. Listening to most people on this board, we are going to have the second highest payroll in the division and we are assured of last place this year. Look at the teams of recent vintage in the playoffs. Many low budget teams. It's not how much you spend but it's spending enough and spending it WISELY. I don't think a 7 year contract for any pitcher is wise. I understand the wanting to get the best players at any cost. But it's just my bias from working with players and injuries.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:34 AM) Those guys had nowhere near the success that Santana has had so far. You can't base it on health alone, in that case, everyone would only sign one year deals. He has the same chance of injury every year. All of them had varying degrees of success especially Kevin Brown. However, talent isn't the point, the point is the odds of any pitcher staying healthy over the length of a contract that long isn't great. Too much of a chance.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) Normally, I'd agree with you. But Santana is something special. He's still young and already a very accomplished pitcher. People said the same thing about Denny Neagle, Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez.... I'm not saying he isn't the best just that the odds of him actually staying healthy for even half the contract isn't good. since you will only be able to insure half of it, that will be a major drain on any budget.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 09:10 AM) Yep. I agree. He's worth it. No pitcher is worth a 7 year deal. Look at the history of those long term deals, I can't think of any that have worked out. I have no problem offering 25 mil for 4 years but I would never sign a pitcher for more than 4 years.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 14, 2007 -> 10:02 PM) And we don't have a 2nd rounder taking away our hope that KW might think he could drop to us in the 2nd round. We have two third basemen and we're letting go of all of our young 1B so either we're banking on Kong for awhile or looking to trade him and get a 1B back (unless we think Smoak is our guy and will fall to us). We have enough young pitching that is filled with "top of the rotation guys" according to KW's assessment of what other GMs think. Sounds like we're set up to get an OF since that's our biggest need now and guess who is an OF with "all" the qualities you listed above and "all" the qualities we are looking for...the Grinder Danks! Didn't we just sign him to a 5 year deal that has three left on it? That would be banking on him. Here is a question for the thread. Since everyone is stating that we have nothing in the farm system, one way to correct that would be to draft the safer, more projectable guys and not the high risk high reward guys. The other option is draft the high risk-high reward guys and take the chance that the system is devoid of talent for a longer time. It's a dilemma that I haven't quite decided which way to go.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 14, 2007 -> 03:13 PM) Just for fun, Keith Law's top-20 (looks decent from what I can tell other than Alvarez being #5 instead of #1): 1. Isaac Galloway OF, Los Osos HS, Rancho Cucamonga, Calif. 2. Aaron Hicks OF, Wilson HS, Long Beach, Calif. 3. Justin Smoak 1B, University of South Carolina 4. Brian Matusz LHP, University of San Diego Anaheim 5. Pedro Alvarez 3B, Vanderbilt 6. Brett Wallace 1B, Arizona State 7. Eric Hosmer 1B, American Heritage HS, Plantation, Fla. 8. Lance Lynn RHP, University of Mississippi 9. Daniel Webb RHP, Heath HS, W. Paducah, Ky. 10. Yonder Alonso 1B, University of Miami (Fla.) 11. Brett DeVall LHP, Rutherford HS, Panama City, Fla. 12. Cody Satterwhite RHP, University of Mississippi 13. Brandon Crawford SS, UCLA 14. Ethan Martin 3B, Stephens County HS, Toccoa, Ga. 15. James Darnell RF/3B, University of South Carolina 16. Jemile Weeks 2B, University of Miami (Fla.) 17. Harold Martinez SS/3B, Braddock HS, Miami, Fla. 18. Tyson Ross RHP, University of California 19. Jacob Thompson RHP, University of Virginia 20. Jordan Danks OF, University of Texas If this is accurrate, what an awful year for pitching. Only 7 in the top 20?

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 01:52 PM) I am saying you HAVE to do a blood test to show HGH. Missed test or not. And no sport currently allows for that. That will be a tough sell. there is no current test for HGH other than a blood test and as I said before no union will agree to it.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 01:34 PM) Yeah, a fractured vert and removing a disc is serious though. Hes worth a shot as a 1B/DH but anywhere else is an injury risk. It's really the rotation of the swing that would concern me more.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 12:35 PM) Vertebrae. I believe its considered more serious than Crede's not really. It sounds like a spondylolithesis. This is where one of the vertebrae is slipping froward on another causing stress, disc and nerve problems. This problem can be fixed through bone grafts and hardware to correct the slipping. It's like someone says "a fracture is better than a sprain" because the bone will heal stronger than the ligament. Same principle. It would be a similar surgery and rehab. Just the added 6-8 weeks of bone healing. The rehab for just a disc surgery would overlap this time frame anyway. He should have a good recovery, as good as chance as anyone with lumbar surgery.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 12:00 PM) No, because there is no empirical evidence that any of these guys did roids. They have no tested positive, and some of them were only named because the Mitchell investigators asked interviewees who they "thought" was on steroids. There never will be empirical evidence. Most of them will be linked to HGH. HGH can only be detected through blood tests, currently. No union allows blood tests, including the NFL. This is why it can all be refuted and there will never be proof.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 11:58 AM) Hes a 1B. The 3B hopes are all but gone, his back is worse than Crede's frankly. He would be a good DH/1B for a team to take a flier on. Anyone know what his back problem was or what type of surgery he had? I'm not familiar with what happened.

QUOTE(rockren @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) I've always said this to my friends. KW's immaturity shows how average his intelligence really is. He's no smarter than Joe Schmoe down the street. I know a lot of brilliant people are arrogant, but KW doesn't fall under that category with me. Actually, the behavior most people associate with "immaturity" can be a sign of intelligence not average intelligence. It comes from getting frustrated when other of less intelligence around you cannot understand or comprehend what you are saying or doing. Not to say that KW is necessarily intelligent but your assumption that immaturity=average intelligence is inaccurrate.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 10:13 AM) I do understand that you can't protect everyone. But I'd like to know why you choose to protect Andy Gonzalez over Fernando Hernandez. They probably didn't consider either worth keeping. If Hernandez was protected, he probably would have been the one non-tendered instead of Gonzalez. Either way both would be gone from the system as it appears they have other plans for that roster spot. So it really doesn't matter who was protected and who wasn't, they were both on the bottom of the totem pole.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 07:18 AM) So lets see, KW has a team that was 6 losses away from being the worst in baseball on the major league level. His farm system ranks next to last in baseball. He has the payroll up over $100 million, and he thinks the upgrade of Cabrera over Uribe, Quentin, Linebrink plus a CF like Crisp while taking away Garland from the rotation and putting Floyd and Danks in there for a full season will cure all that ails this team. He is arrogant I'll give him that. Probably not very smart either. Do you honestly believe that none of Dye, Konerko and Thome will hit above .274? They all had bad seasons last year if none of them rebound I don't care what he added in the offseason the team will be bad. If at least two of them do the team will be better than last year.

QUOTE(retro1983hat @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 09:01 AM) Yes, KW was the architect responsible for the giant fall our team has had since the ASB 2006. He deserves credit for 2005, but also blame for 2006, 2007 and our last-place 2008 finish. Didn't the Sox win 90 games in 2006? I hardly call that a failure for which he needs to be fired. You can use opinion and revisionist history but ultimately he will be judged on his record. I'm not sure what the White Sox record is under his tenure but I would suspect it is a a pretty good winning percentage.

The locker room rumors of recent vintage were Mags and Rowand.

QUOTE(bighurt4life @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 11:40 PM) Sounds to me like we're about to trade minor league players for someone who's going to be on the 25 man roster, or else why keep those guys around and not protect some of the players taken in rule 5? Maybe because they didn't believe the guys taken in the Rule 5 draft were worth keeping.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:43 AM) ESPN RADIO: ROGER CLEMENS!!!!! HAHAHAHA He is the one that has always been talked about in the locker rooms. Since he looks to be retired, maybe he will be in it but I still doubt it.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 09:11 PM) I'd put money on it that 15-20 players named will be no name Mets bench players. (AKA: Timo) There's going to be an awful lot of disappointed people when the report is made public tomorrow. Yes. 80 names only when over 100 tested positive alone during the "trial" drug testing in 2003. Most of the names that truly used will not be in there. My guess is mostly retired players who this won't effect.