Balta1701

They have addressed it. Their coaches realized their guys weren't swinging aggressively enough, so they had them swing more aggressively. It took work to get past the Royals to lead the league in this.

But this does show you how “he didn’t play baseball and wasn’t a scout” isn’t the biggest problem with Hahn.

I would agree with this. If there’s one thing we’ve consistently said about this franchise, it is no longer running very well. You have strikes outdoors by the food workers, massive turnover in the ticket sales staff, the marketing staff can’t even figure out that having Clevinger come out to the song “gold digger” is a bad idea, they signed Clevinger with an insufficient background check, they had a completely unnecessary contract fight with their main play by play broadcaster and are set up to run him out of town, they tried to cover up a coach’s DUI, there’s plenty more. None of these affect the team on the field directly but they have all fed into the dissatisfaction, and anger coming at the franchise.

Honestly, I’m completely ok with this. If you wanted to do this the right way, saving every cent possible now is important. If you can clear out Anderson and Eloys contracts now, do so. Holding onto them runs the risk that you will be stuck paying for next year when they’re hurt or struggling worse, and I don’t really care if they’re better next year because this team isn’t good enough for one or two people improving to do anything other than offset the things they lost to FA.

Last year the Cardinals acquired Quintana. He was super cheap financially and on a one year deal. It cost them a reliever (Oviedo) and their number 10 prospect, who would probably be number 5 in our system. The Yankees gave up their number 5, Number 10, number 20, and number 21 prospects for Montas, but he had two years of control remaining. The first is probably a closer comp for Giolito.

They are a bottom 3 team in the AL right now. They are a bottom 5 system in MLB and they have a bunch of salary on the books next year already, very little to spend. They have zero path to being better the next several years. They can bury their heads in the sand and insist that things will be better, but that will just extend the pain.

To be fair, those two were also awful. Alberto was one of the worst white Sox players this year.

Bottom of the season so far was 14 games under .500. We’re back to 13 games under. Exactly back to April 30, day after the losing streak ended.

They fundamentally believe that taking too many pitches is a mistake. This has been a consistent theme since Rick Hahn started hiring hitting coaches. You have to attach pitchers aggressively, that’s their goal.

Well someone has to make a game thread because something interesting is happening. Tim Anderson is now at 2b, presumably to clear playing time for their long-term solution at SS, Elvis Andrus.

No one is disagreeing with this and some of us were warning of this all the way back to 2018, when the minor league system had a really bad year. That doesn't mean the system wasn't super strong in 2017-2018 after the trades. They worked! They set us up well, they just failed in all the steps around it.

Haven't we seen plenty of baseball lifers struggle at the GM role, and guys who didn't have any experience with playing or scouting baseball have success? Andrew Friedman comes to mind as his wikipedia page suggests that he only played a little baseball in college and then went on to work for BearStearns once he graduated. Being able to scout players yourself is only one part of the job. Understanding making deals, understanding how to surround yourself with good people, managing risk, understanding your financial situation, managing outreach and marketing, these are all tasks that don't necessarily require you to be able to personally scout baseball players. Many of these are business tasks and management tasks.

That 2005 roster found its core in the 2000s ish top system. You had key cheap pitchers (buehrle, Garland), you had key cheap position players (Rowand, Crede). A top system doesn't mean everyone succeeds, it means you have some guys who are successful and some who aren't, but you have plenty of tools to work with. Some can be used in trades (i.e. picking up Garcia, Thome). Some are decent and that makes them useful because they're cheap, you free up money to be used elsewhere. Some will bust, but overall - the strength of that system translated to the strength of the organization for the next decade.

Well yeah, but "due to drafting and scouting" wasn't specified. Only a top system. And no, those rankings weren't crap, that still formed the core of a 93 win team that was dramatically held back by their manager and GM. They just couldn't do anything to build on it.

Naw, at one point the White Sox had Cease, Eloy, Kopech, Giolito, Moncada, Lopez, Dunning, Narvaez, Engel, and Robert all in their system within one year. That's several all stars already, and about 10 guys who have had at least decent single years. Imagine the depth it takes to pull of 10 decent big leaguers in your system at one time, that's a legitimate top system. Take all that youth, use it intelligently, pair it with some draft picks over the next few years, and you have plenty of room to go sign a big contract or two that should push you into the playoffs. Even if none of them became all stars, 10 "decent big leaguers who don't cost much" is and should have been a huge advantage.

Yes, I can imagine the White Sox having the #1 farm system.

This GM has such a consistent historic record of f***ing up this exact decision that I will believe it when I see it. 2015, the team is 10 games below .500 in June and 11 games back in the division. A winning streak brings them to 5 under by early July and Rick Hahn declares “if we keep playing like this we’ll be right there at the end”. He sells no deadline pieces, including Samardzija who was an upcoming free agent. They finish in 4th place, 10 games under .500 and 19 back in the division. They don’t learn their lesson one bit, double down on that roster being one player away with Frazier the next offseason. When that team hit on a huge losing skid in May, they double down again by trading for Shields. They finally at the deadline basically stand pat, I think they sent one lefty reliever out. Oh and they draft a closer in the first round because maybe he can help the 2016 bullpen. 2022 they look hopeless but they’re bouncing between 3 and 6 games back in the division in July. If they don’t clear money it could seriously hurt 2023s roster. They add a lefty reliever at the deadline and finish 11 games back. Between Hahn’s foolishness and stubbornness, and maybe his sycophantic unwillingness to tell Reinsdorf bad news, he has stood firm in worse, more difficult positions than this one. A couple wins and he might be 4 games back again, even while still in fourth place. They have a long and consistent record of burying their heads in sand and declaring everything is fine In exactly this situation. So, I Will believe they will make a correct decision when they have made it, not before.

With his lack of defensive value and lack of base running value, this kind of stat line leaves him somewhere between the 2022 full season performances of Ty France and Vladimir Guerrero Jr, who hit 20 and 32 HR respectively. Those guys were worth 2.4 and 2.8 fWAR in 2022, again in order. Not only is that kinda disappointing for the #3 pick...he's not going to be cheap any more while doing that. Ty France is arb-1 this year and is making $4.1 million, so if Vaughn follows roughly that number, he's up to $4 million next year and maybe $8 million and $11 million the following years. That's tolerable at best performance for that money at that position, but nothing all that impressive. And if he doesn't get to that performance, and stays where he is now...you might start talking about non tendering him in that final year.

So your opinion is that the White Sox have a ton of talent right now?

That's a great point. Item 1 is Renteria, Item 2 is LaRussa, Item 3 is Pedro. A baffling and risky decision that no other franchise in baseball would make, one of them made under each coach! Someone really hates this player.

All right so I couldn't take the time to write this on the phone. I can't get over how unbelievably nuts the White Sox's treatment of this pitcher has been. Let's just spell all this out. 1. This pitcher has played for the University of Tennessee in 2018-2019. He threw 63 then 65 innings in those seasons, respectively, with 1/3 of his outings being starts. He is a lefty throwing 100 mph. He throws 3 innings in the 2020 season due to COVID shutdowns, and thus he has thrown 130 innings in 3 years. The White Sox draft this guy 11th overall, giving him a multi-million dollar bonus. They take this valuable pitcher who hasn't thrown in a year, send him to their training camp site, and immediately bring him up into a big league playoff race where they make the 11th pick in the draft into a middle reliever/2nd lefty. He is put into a playoff game and leaves with an elbow injury. 2. This pitcher comes into 2021, coming off an injury, with a dramatic velocity drop, averaging 97 mph rather than 100. The White Sox ignored this velocity drop and put him back in the bullpen for a year. They turn their 11th pick into the draft into a middle reliever, burning a year pre-arbitration in the bullpen. 3. The pitcher, unsurprisingly, hurts his elbow. When he comes back, he is brought back to the big leagues only 13 1/2 months after Tommy John Surgery - most pitchers who have this surgery have at least several months longer than this. His minor league rehab stint is...6 innings. He is immediately put back into the big league bullpen, where he throws terribly for a month without being sent down or given a break, and then he is put out to pitch on a day where his velocity is clearly down to the low 90s. He isn't pulled out of the game and takes the loss. He is revealed to have been pitching with shoulder pain, and they give him a cortisone shot. Just read through this, can anyone actually believe this? It's controversial to draft closers in the first round, this team took a #11 pick with very little work and immediately shoved him into the bullpen as a middle reliever. Teams take great efforts to avoid pushing their draftees too far too fast, the White Sox had this guy in a playoff clinching game after throwing 9 innings in 2020. Teams get really nervous if guys show velocity drops, the White Sox had no issues with it. Teams are careful with guys coming off of Tommy John Surgery, the White Sox said "we need our middle reliever now!". If I had to guess, I'd say that literally every one of the other 29 teams would have treated this guy differently at each of those three decision points. If anyone develops multiverse travel, I'd love a trip to a universe where someone else drafted this guy, because this just seems nuts when you go through it.

That's exactly my question. Is there anyone who successfully pulled this off, retooling from really bad to really good without help from a system and without expanding their budget?