Balta1701

It’s kinda remarkable how consistent the White Sox have been in tossing out young catchers who took to be better elsewhere. Tyler Flowers would never become a good pitch framer, so we discarded him for Avila from Detroit. Flowers gets a bit of coaching and becomes the best framing catcher in baseball. Waste of money and made the team worse. Josh Phegley couldn’t be trusted to handle the veteran staff in the competitive 2015 white Sox, so we sent him out in the Semien deal. He isn’t anything special but is a competent backup catcher on playoff teams, meanwhile the Sox spend more money on Dioner Navarro And eventually Wellington Castillo. Waste of another $10 million or so. The Narvaez flap that I’ve covered already. Waste of $60 million or so. Seby Zavala, Kevan Smith, tolerable backups, a couple million spent replacing them each time. One turns into McCann, but the other turns into $8 million on Maldonado. So…yeah, the White Sox giving up on catchers for our mighty Vetz has happened 3, 4, 5 times since Pierzynsky? The good news is we probably were OK dumping Collins? Notice also how it doesn’t matter the kind of team they have, same exact result - gotta get a vet from outside. 2015 - we are gonna win the Central thanks to Hahn’s brilliance so we need a veteran catcher to handle the experienced rotation. 2017, 2019 - we are gonna stink but our rotation is young so we need a veteran to handle them. No situation is ever acceptable for developing a catcher.

I think this was quite obviously the right move. Hopefully it only comes back as "Balta you were complaining about nothing, we won the AL and had plenty of money to spare because Quero developed" in a few years. If it does though, that'll be a first. This wasted a couple million dollars and blocks a prospect unnecessarily, and it's too bloody familiar to me.

Weird, Baseball Reference lists the Baseball America listing for Lee and the BP listing for Quero, but not a Baseball America listing for Quero. But "Both of them were exactly 70th ranked by Baseball America" sure counts as a bit of a comparison, right? Problem with your logic, you might also be less likely to try to "power through a rookie catcher" in 2026 when you think your team can win 85 games and be in the playoff hunt than in 2024 when you're signing 0 WAR former Royals for everything. There's going to be way less patience two years from now, and they're showing none right now.

You really can't quote Zavala's offensive statistics in a thread on Martin Maldonado. You just can't. Career OPS: .631 2023 OPS: .606 They're both bad offensively, but we paid a $3 million premium for this version!

Lee was a decently thought of prospect a few years ago, prior to 2022 Baseball America had him as #70 on their list - Quero has so far not shown up on the BA list but has shown up on the BP list at 89. There's obviously differences, but the exact same logic does work here and I don't see a reason why they wouldn't employ it. If they aren't willing to play a catcher now because they need veterans to influence the young pitchers, when are they ever going to be comfortable with a young catcher? When are they going to have this experienced, veteran rotation where they can afford to work in a young catcher, are they going to sign a bunch of early 30s starters any time soon? I'm expecting to hear the same logic in 2026 when they sign the next mid 30s catcher and block Quero, and I have heard it about the White Sox young catchers before.

IF they're not willing to play Lee, what makes us think they're going to develop and play Quero? The 2026 White Sox will surely have young pitching, how can we trust that to an inexperienced catcher?

Both of you are correct, that's why any concept of the Astros adding Cease has focused on doing something involving their major leaguers, someone dropped the idea in this thread of using McCormick (who was stunningly good last year in the OF, but who Dusty also under-used). But that's also a poor fit for the White Sox. I also would definitely believe that the Astros think they can do what they did with Cole, get the guy cheaper than expected and then develop him properly. However, the Astros also don't make themselves better by trading away Framber, or really anyone else in their org, and acquiring Cease. They have a big problem in that they're running out of control on the guys they have, and they know it. I think more that Framber is actually a possible problem for the White Sox. The Stros don't want to rebuild, but the Astros can also see the writing on the wall, with Altuve, Bregman, and Pressly free agents after this year and Verlander, Framber, and Tucker free agents after next year. If the Orioles were willing to put two strong prospects and a decent third piece on the table for a starting pitcher, there's a real risk the Astros would jump in as interested with the same deal for Framer. If they got an infielder back, they could then move Bregman this year to someone like the Yankees, clear out payroll, and suddenly think that they're in a spot to afford to extend Tucker and Altuve. The concept of moving Framber and Bregman has gotten enough talk around here to know they've at least considered it internally.

I don't think that concept is crazy, I do wonder if it would be a conditional 2nd or something like that depending on number of starts.

This thread sounds exactly like a Rick Hahn set of moves to me.

This sounds like a very good plan to me.

Not yet, but MLBTR said that it is a $4 million option. It's probably something that vests as long as he doesn't get seriously hurt, given those numbers - this is likely a 2 year, $8 million deal that gives the Sox an out if he misses a large portion of 2024.

But relevant to this thread - they also need guys that can help them in 2025, particularly cheap guys, even if they're backups. Signing Martin Maldonado to a deal with a vesting option both blocks Lee, likely limits his development and gives a high chance that he's released at some point prior to 2025, and potentially locks in some funds on a catcher who will turn 39 during that season if his option vests. If this is the strategy, to try to turn things around quickly and get back to .500, then when there are moves made that on paper undermine that strategy, they should be specifically called out. This is one of those.

Neat! After 10 years of hearing that decisions by the White Sox can’t have been made by Rick Hahn, I think this is my first example of Chris Getz’s decisions aren’t Chris Getz’s fault!

No. At the very least it seems to ignore that there are legitimate victims in this case, and what happened to them as an end result is a story that we won’t hear.

Computers.

Y’all spent last offseason telling me how much the environment was going to improve after 2022 and how that would lift all boats and you don’t see how someone would think this ridiculous?

What kind of return are those guys bringing? What kind of trade return did Tim Anderson bring?

Then the right decision is likely to be to hold him until The trade deadline if you’re expecting a substantially better performance from him.

“He stopped caring” might be an even worse statement about a supposed professional, my word. Just jaw dropping.

Aaron Bummer brought back a bunch of guys about to be nontendered for roster spots.

Do you believe that Dylan Cease was a better pitcher in 2021 than in 2022?

Is an ERA of 8.07 a “badly broken” pitcher?

Cease had an 8.07 ERA in August. Games in August count too!

“My pitching coach can fix this badly broken pitcher” continues to be a vexing argument for paying a high price for a player.

Naw, but neither of them would have helped a contender.