Greg Hibbard

All griping aside, this night’s like Christmas Eve, where the magic never ends. 162 games to go and anything is possible!

It really all hinges on Robert being 100% for 80% of the year. If he is, it makes everything way easier because of his range. Eloy/Vaughn/Sheets could be in either corner for a combined 30-40 games if Robert and Benintendi/Colas are in the other.

100% agree with this, and will add that Tony’s capriciousness of playing Abreu every day, even while he was dinged up, while other players like Vaughn “needed days off” arbitrarily or Leury “had to be in the mix” was fn maddening.

If Leury still gets his $11 million no matter what, then it’s truly the best situation for all. I can’t believe the Sox did the right thing, but they did. They needed to swallow this money and close the door on the La Russa era. It’s a nice gesture, honestly. Leury gets a nice payday and exit bonus, can put a lot of it away, have a nice little victory lap stint bouncing up and down as an aging vet on a rebuilder for a nice final chapter on a substantial major league career. He was never really all that sensational, but he was a solid piece for many years and we really needed some continuity during those years. And we get to move on to pieces that actually have upside beyond replacement player.

Leury’s remaining contract money is guaranteed, right? Sox have to eat it no matter what? Or if he makes another team, what happens?

I agree with you that the White Sox need 5 or 6 players playing in most of the games to contend for the title, but the above stat indicates that in each of those 5 seasons. 4 or 5 - out of 9 (or 10 including the DH, now for both leagues for the last two years) per team played that many games. 122 out of 300 offensive starters played 82%+ last year…a shade over 40%. What does that tell you? That it isn’t the norm anymore.

Interesting that you mentioned his swing and miss issues and I agree with your point, but while Moncada used to be dreadful - 33% k rate per AB early in his career, since the beginning of 2019 his K rate per AB has dropped to 30.5% and since the beginning of 2021 it’s even better - 29.5%. I don’t ever seem to hear much about that improvement.

More than anything, I just want this board to admit that the goal posts just never stop moving for Moncada compared to other players. Many want Eloy to stop playing his natural position at all so he can stay healthy, take a zero or negative number with defense, but Moncada can play the best defense of anyone on the team but it’s not enough because…well, I’m not sure why. Many are willing to gloss over TA’s lack of OBA, injury history, defensive lapses, off the field issues while holding Moncada to an impossible standard of “looking like he isn’t wincing” or not doing music videos or whatever. I bring up in this thread that Moncada has actually played 82% of his games since 2018 and that’s not really enough because…. we can cherry pick a list of starters who have played 90%+? or he’s “soft” because we don’t like his facial expressions or amount of the time he’s spent on the ground after a collision, or that his effort isn’t completely there for some people when he’s in the game despite his career numbers? where are the goalposts, folks? He had a bad year. 104 games coming off an injury and long COVID is not a sample size to descredit the preceding 530 games where he has proven himself, 25 year olds who play at this level don’t suddenly go downhill at that age. I predict a big year, personally. but what are the goalposts? 6 WAR or he’s a bust? How many players in baseball do 6 WAR a year? Like it or not, remember it or not, Beckham was very highly touted, did have tremendous support in the organization and fanbase and I recall him having a very long leash. Moncada had long COVID, one bad year, and people want him to be a bench player. It’s unbelievable frankly.

Ok. For his 2023 and 2024 salary, what is an acceptable expected WAR per 162 for Yoan Moncada?

Ok, I’ll bite. How many total players have played in 82% of their games or more since 2018?

I suppose what I’m also saying is that I’ve seen Leury, and the ceiling for Leury at age 31 is AAAA. There’s no upside. Defense isn’t plus at any position, offense is bad both handed, running is average. I think the ceiling for Sheets and Burger is potentially higher, and I would live with a little minus defense at the corners if Robert is truly healthy, and with Andrus and Anderson in the infield and Vaughn at his natural position, we are in better shape defensively anyway to start, so I don’t mind losing defense to potentially power which was the single biggest deficiency last year.

Sheets and Vaughn can both be the emergency outfielders, if Robert is IL’d or anyone else goes down, you call up Billy or whoever outfielder, otherwise Colas can back up CF and Sheets and Eloy and Vaughn back up right while Eloy and Vaughn back up Left. why can’t Romy be the guy to cover 2nd and SS?

Why not? If Vaughn starts against LHP, do you want him and his .691 career OPS against a tough RH setup guy or Sheets with his nearly .800 OPS, especially with a likely RH closer looming? Let’s say another scenario happens, and Burger starts against a tough Lefty because Moncada is not nearly as offensively good with a .713 OPS, then I do the opposite and bring Moncada for the above scenario. This is exactly why I want Sheets and Burger both on the team. Both have power, and I want the stronger bat to come in when the opposing manager plays extremely strong percentage plays.

The other reason I favor Burger and Sheets is because the two players they would be pinch hitting for in high leverage situations are basically the opposite handedness to their respective handedness. Burger would spell Moncada late to cover a LHP, whereas Sheets would spell Vaughn against a tough RHP. And they would be entering the game defensively at positions they can cover. Yes you lose something at third, and Moncada is arguably a true switch hitter potentially. But Burger crushed LHP, Sheets crushes RHP. That’s gold. To me a high leverage PH AB with a favorable matchup is way more valuable than a replacement level player you can move around anywhere. I would rather DFA Leury and get a vet CF on a minor league deal who can give me just enough if Robert goes down for a stretch.

Unless Romy can play CF.

Damn. That's right. I don't know why I didn't think of that. Wishful thinking, I suppose...

My scenario does work in the instance that Robert goes to IL and you call up Leury. Leury becomes true AAA depth that you just paid $5 million for the luxury to have, and if this organization wasn’t so cheap maybe they would consider this.

Seby obviously. The case for no Leury: If Eloy can play RF a bit, and if Colas can cover CF and LF as a back up, and Vaughn is your emergency LF and RF, are your five "outfielders" potentially LF Benintendi/Eloy/Colas/Vaughn CF Robert/Colas/Benintendi in a pinch? RF Colas/Eloy/Sheets/Vaughn That gives you essentially full coverage on OF. No true util needed unless an IL stint happens and you call up one of the other guys. That means you can do on the IF 3B Moncada/Burger/Romy? SS Anderson/Andrus/Romy 2B Andrus/Romy/Anderson? 1B Vaughn/Sheets/Grandal So I think your four bench players are Romy, Burger, Sheets, Seby. Would that be a way to get both Burger and Sheets on the team? Because I want both on the team when their handedness gives us a PH advantage.

So you take exception to the way he acts / reacts on the field, got it.

Ok so by my count Yoan has played in 581 of 708 games (82%) since the beginning of the 2018 season, is there any other White Sox starter besides Abreu who has appeared in that many games over that span? Not Tim, not Luis, not Eloy, not even Leury. So it’s not his actual health, right? I mean Mike Trout has only played in 68.6% of team games over the last six seasons since his age 24 season for comparison… Or are you taking some kind of issue with just the way he conducts himself on the field after an incident as performative?

Question for some folks here who are really hard on Yoan Moncada… How did you feel about Gordon Beckham after the 2013 season? Did you feel he was washed up? A loser? “Soft”? Didn’t belong here? Were you as hard on Beckham as you are on Moncada? it’s interesting to look at both together at this point in their respective careers. Both were very highly touted top prospects and both had lofty expectations. Both missed some games with injuries. Both had inconsistent offensive lines through their first few years. But as I recall, at the same point in Gordo’s career, a ton of folks were still drinking the koolaid on Beckham - and as I recall here people were clamoring for his return after he went to the Angels the next year and then many were excited he re-signed with us. I get that Gordo seems at first glance to have had a decent 2013 and be on the upswing while Moncada had a bad 2022 offensively, but then again: Beckham 2013: 0.7 WAR Moncada 2022: 0.9 WAR The to-that-point-in-their-career tale of the tape on both: Beckham 2009-2013: 638 G, .660ish OPS, 5.7 WAR total. Moncada 2016-2022: 643 G, .759 OPS, 13.1 WAR total. I also ask this question because our head play by play cheerleader at that time was Mr. Beckham’s biggest fan, eternally…. whereas it seems as though these days Moncada can’t necessarily buy a friend in the broadcast booth. $ per WAR is also interesting to look at, not that far apart to this point in their career: Yoan $23 million for 13.8 WAR with the White Sox (he has -0.4 WAR with the Red Sox) = 1.70million per WAR Gordo $9 million for 5.7 WAR = 1.58 million per WAR it really does seem like this is the year that will likely define Moncada’s contract being good or bad. I’m still a fan of his freakish talent but wonder if he can put it all together for whatever reason.

Cmon people. No matter what you hope, no matter what makes sense, the White Sox will play him as a “Swiss army knife / Jack of all trades / indispensable master of so many positions” until he is so embarrassingly bad for months that it is untenable. And by months I mean into May of next year when they finally eat the last 4 million and DFA. In other words, this cheapskate organization’s bread and butter approach for going on 40 years with players like Leury - locking down multiple years at somewhat cheap money for a below replacement, management friendly, low ceiling, “high floor” (if this was AAAA) player

I don’t mind Jose being critical here at all. He didn’t need to say the Astros were some sort of family, impossible to know that three weeks in, and that seems like shade for sake of shade. I would be pissed too if I gave everything I had for 10 years and had a dysfunctional last year in a dysfunctional organization to show for it. Based on all he did for the White Sox, I will give him a pass. It is interesting to see that Ron’s 5 year plan of poisoning of the board’s perception of Jose Abreu has finally bore fruit with other posters. Imagine thinking Jose Abreu, man who outplayed his 3 year contract by leaps and bounds, was somehow also responsible for TA’s distractions, Robert’s mystery injuries, Eloy not being able to stay in the lineup, Moncada’s apparent lack of interest, AJ Pollock being bad, Vaughn and Sheets sucking out of position, Leury being overused. The goalposts are unbelievable for this guy.

Yes, making the playoffs is a big deal. Yes, it should be celebrated, commensurate with its acheivement - you're in the top 20% of teams. Great. Good for the White Sox that they are in the upper tier. Here's the problem though: we haven't been sold the line that this is a contending team with budget constraints that will compete in the playoffs and may or may not win. We've been sold the line that this is a "multiple championship" window of contention - which is complete bullshit given the way the White Sox have run their budget with their eyes wide open to how the rest of the league wins. They sold us this line expecting every good prospect to hit the top of their projections and stay healthy, and as usual they have not complimented their team with high flying FA in the prime of their career who can delver 6-8 WAR on demand. Because the White Sox are cheapskates. That the system is broken and only rewards the big spending teams willing to take luxury tax hits and disregard budget constraints is an unfortunate reality, but it's been an unfortunate reality for 3 decades now since the Yankees started buying championships and the Red Sox and Cardinals followed suit. You want to win in this league? Stop wringing your hands over "the largest contract ever offered by the Sox" and wonder why we aren't dumping $300 million on the pavement and actually trying to win. It would be nice if for once in my lifetime I could say that the White Sox wasted a ton of money compared to all other teams in an effort to actually win.

I usually go to 10-15 games a year with a handful of friends. I probably will go to at least one to spend time with those friends, but I don’t want to. I’ve never been less excited about baseball in my life. My heart has been broken by this organization.