Greg Hibbard

And those decisions will be made incorrectly.

Why on earth would you trust this franchise to make these decisions and/or moves correctly? Until there is new ownership and a new front office, they won’t do the right thing with anything. Not prospects, not veterans, not trades, not drafts, nothing. My sincere advice to all White Sox fans is to save your energy for better things. There is no patient to save until Reinsdorf is dead.

Whether over or under is correct is not the point The point is actually that we are in the heart of a decade long franchise defining rebuild, and it is perfectly damned legitimate for betting experts to set the friggin over/under at 83.5 and there are perfectly damned legitimate arguments as to why that is probably accurate within 3-5 games either way. It is a devastating notion. The over/under should be at ninety friggin five. This is a dumpster fire of an organization. I would rather this team loses 120 than wins 83.5 or anywhere within 5 games of that range. That debating 83 vs 85 vs 81 is acceptable is further proof that this ownership group is not serious about contending in the sport of baseball at the major league level and should be boycotted until further notice. They contemptuously laugh at the fans while they cash their checks and pat themselves on the back while checking all the “valuation of the team” boxes while paying us all just the right amount of lip service. What a bunch of reprehensible clowns we have running this franchise we can’t quit, huh?

I would like this team to lose 110 games, hopefully fire everyone, for them to lose fan interest and civic support, and for the fans and others to continue to pressure Jerry to sell. My fondest wish is an ownership change to someone who actually loves this franchise and wants it to succeed.

I know it is said a lot around here when tempers flare, but it’s been a near constant thought since the Clevinger news broke (and I am convinced the white Sox could have done more to figure out red flags before signing this guy): I think I may have to be done with supporting this team at all until it is under new ownership. I’m very sad about it, and my heart is broken. I’ve never followed a team as fervently as I have the White Sox. I think this string of disappointments since Renteria was fired has just finally done me in. Stuff like this 500 level bar thing just makes my blood boil. It shouldn’t.

Kansas City has a higher per capita murder rate than Chicago.

There is nothing that is going to prevent Clevinger from getting this money for the time being. Your choice is in whether this person is with your team or he isn’t. Seems like an easy choice to me.

What would be the remedy for the grievance? To pay his salary? Then fucking pay Clevinger his fucking $12 million and DFA his fucking ass. This is the cost of doing the right thing. Sorry it hurts your wallet, you stupid cheapskates.

Everyone I've heard on the Score this morning suggested that some of these social media posts have been out there since before the Sox signed Clevinger, and that a cursory google search could have indicated many red flags. I haven't vetted that for myself, but if that's true - it's inexcusable for them not to have done a cursory fucking google search in this day and age.

Hahn is the fall guy for the organization because he is at the top and responsible for everything that happens underneath him. It's inexcusable for the White Sox to not have known anything about this.

First of all, I’m struggling more with my fandom than ever, and I’m on the verge of not following the team this year. As constructed, I do not believe they can win, especially when compared to the Yankees or Astros. I now despise leadership and ownership, especially for TLR, and the water-carrying fan attacks Steve Stone carried out last year that poured gasoline on my on-fire fandom. That all being said, one of the things I recently realized is that the whole “number of playoff series won / championships won” barometer is a very flawed metric to evaluate whether an organization is “good” or “bad”, given the historic structure of baseball playoffs, wherein for decades, 2 teams out of 20, or 4 teams out of 24, or 4 teams out of 28 made it to the postseason. That, coupled with the lack of revenue sharing / salary cap, make runaway franchises a real problem in this sport. There were several times (notably, the 1967, 1990, 1994 seasons) where the White Sox were arguably a top 5 franchise in baseball, but had no postseason opportunity to speak of, when they definitely should have for one reason or another. Top 5 out of 20 or 24 or 28 - I’m sorry, but that is good enough. And that is the fault of the system. The “number of playoff series won” metric looks very bad for a number of franchises not named the Cardinals or Yankees or Dodgers from the 20s until the 00s - look at how many playoff series the Cubs won from 1909 to 2015 - I believe the answer is 1 (2003). Heading into the 2022 season, I went back to see how many organizations since 2000 had won 1 World Series and appeared in the playoffs in 5 seasons. The answer is I believe 10 teams, with the White Sox being one of them. Are the other 20 teams all worse than the White Sox? Are 25 of 30 orgs bad? The Major League Baseball system (unlike the NFL, which is the opposite) really punishes teams for not being super aggressive with payroll, trades, and other moves, and under the same microscope we put our own franchise under, I wonder how many other organizations folks would want to root for. Would you want to root for the Rangers? The Diamondbacks? The A’s? The Rockies? The Marlins? The Rays? That all being said, the biggest problem I have is that this organization continues to make bad faith moves towards its fanbase, which it treats with utter contempt. Stone’s antics are part of it, but there’s more. Canceling Soxfest, the one place we have an opportunity to actually call out these things and have the organization appear to be accountable, is inexcusable. As a fan I’m heartbroken.

He hit 20 the year he played 151 games. I say between 5 and 15

Tim averages 57 extra base hits per 162 - you would classify that as someone "who's one trick is hitting for average"? I certainly don't.

I could see all of this if AJ weren’t 34, injured every year, negative defensive WAR for 4 straight seasons, and coming off of a season where his offensive numbers fell off a cliff. What would AJP bring in terms of value that wouldn’t be better served by a very good defensive outfielder in the minors?

I’m still struggling to understand this. Where the hell could he land with his numbers, age, splits? Who would want him?

It’s unfortunate, but I think this org still perceives Leury having too much “versatility” to cut bait with, because if anyone in the outfield or infield goes down with an long, unexpected injury, he gives you ML depth at probably a fairly reliable 0-1 WAR. I’m trying to decipher his defensive value as a backup infielder and outfielder. What’s the best way to do that?

I’ve worked with someone who got so far into the bottle that he had to quietly be told he had to go to a 4 week intake facility or be removed. He chose the facility, and very few people know he wasn’t on a leave of absence for medical reasons. For me… and I’m also just some dummy on a message board speculating… this all kind of adds up now. I don’t want to assume anything, and certainly I’m sympathetic if that’s what happened, but it really does make sense as a possible explanation.

I’m optimistic because they had a bad enough season where it was clear TLR had to go. Could you imagine if they squeaked in with 88 wins, made it a close three game series with like Tampa, then stood pat and ran back exactly the same season because “injuries”? This was the most excruciating season I’ve ever endured, but I’m glad it was bad enough to make major changes. I love the Sox way too much not to care whatever happens. It was clear TLR had to go, they had to make a very tough but right choice with Pito, and they needed a different approach of managing. They are 3/3 so far.

I haven't chimed in on this thread yet (I don't dislike the hire) but just wanted to say that the more Gavin Sheets plays in 2023, the more the Sox's season will be disastrous. The less he plays the better off we all are. Gavin is the type of player you want on a rebuilding squad. He is not a meaningful major league asset to a contending team.

Well he is a 4 WAR player; it is a statistic, not an opinion. It’s like saying you have the opinion that he didn’t hit over .300 this year.

For those of you not voting Abreu an A, Why? The man had over 4 WAR at age 35. I’m really not sure how you could have expected more from him. edit: never mind, seeing the above exchange now.

Do you think the White Sox were a once in a lifetime team like the 85 bears, always in the conversation of best ever, or a very, very good team that had everything go their way and happened to win a World Series? I think what I’m saying is that the White Sox assembled a very good roster and it all hit - but in an insanely great way. More than usual. Contreras was literally automatically unbeatable for 12 months. It was Mike Tyson dominant. Freakish.

Not in the slightest. I’m not shitting on the 05 team, I’m stating that literally every break that year that could have gone their way went their way. When they needed a player to come up clutch, when a crazy play had to go their way, even when Ozzie rolled the dice on things like Buehrle closing. Scott podsednik hitting his first home run of the season to win a World Series game. I love the 05 team, but everything went their way. I don’t know a single Sox fan that wouldn’t concede that if AJ hadn’t stolen game 2, the ALCS turns out completely differently.

I think that's an excellent point about evaluating the differences between Sox GMs w/r/t playoff appearances. However, compared to other orgs in the 2000s, the Sox are I believe one of 10 or 11 teams who have made the playoffs 5+ times and won at least 1 WS. Of course, I think we all know 2005 was an BIG outlier. Everyone had career years, everything clicked at exactly the same time, and then you have AJ's play, the starter dominance, Jenks' emergence, Crazy Carl fitting in and filling in for Frank, it just all worked. It had nothing to do with GM savviness, it had to do with luckboxing.

I think my point is that Hahn shouldn't be evaluated either way on the basis of his overall record, because his overall record would have sucked whether he had been as bad as this or won world series all three years from 2020-2022. On the basis of his lack of playoff and divisional success, he should absolutely be evaluated. And buried.