Greg Hibbard

QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 04:00 PM) Juan Pierre has been a very average player this year. I really have no idea what else there is to discuss. This is a very acceptable response, IMO.

Here a couple of examples of intangible things that have no doubt hindered Juan Pierre to getting into SOME (NOT ALL) decent running situations: 1) Having Adam Dunn be able to make contact with the baseball, work counts with the frequency he usually can, and command the kind of respect from pitchers where they will throw him balls instead of center cut fastball strikes he cannot make contact with (and thus set up catchers to throw out any decent speedster) 2) See above for Alex Rios. If you don't think those two things have had an impact on Pierre's running game indirectly, I think you are deluding yourself. Alexei's relative inability to work counts as a #2 has to also have some impact on his running game.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 03:33 PM) We give up. Juan Pierre is the greatest player in White Sox history. Without him, we would have won 4 or 5 games this year. It's responses like this that make threads like this utterly ridiculous. I never said anything like this. I believe Pierre is an above average hitter, whose speed makes him a decent asset if the middle of the lineup is working properly. I don't believe he merits the continuous bashing he receives by the same five people who resort to childish tactics to make their points.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 03:40 PM) Is this a relatively new statistic? I've never heard of it No f***in s***. You're the one who threw out the 11th in hits stat, Greg is talking about "tangible" statistics, so I was just trying to be as simplistic as him. But once again, thanks for letting me in on this new batting average thing, I'll look into it. You're welcome. I tend to think there is some value in a player who has a high batting average.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) Ay, FINE. If you take away ALL of Pierre's sacrifices and don't take away any one elses, he's still 11th in all of baseball in outs made. You happy now? Again, outs made, like hits, are better reflected by this statistic called BATTING AVERAGE.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 01:53 PM) Tangible fact: He's 3rd in baseball in outs made. Who cares how many at bats he has? That was fun. Tangible fact: he's also first in sacrifices, which are productive outs he's called on (not decides) to make. That was fun, too.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 01:40 PM) He's 11th in the AL in hits while being 8th in at bats, so no, it literally does nothing to help your argument. Yes, most dudes who have the most hits happen to have the most at bats. As it turns out, at one time Major League Baseball devised a statistic to describe a player's effectiveness in getting hits compared to the number of at bats that player has. That statistic is called "batting average." As it turns out, Juan Pierre is just outside of the top twenty in the entire American League in that statistic as well (of the 77 qualified batters). In other words, he's basically in the top quarter of the league. Of the 129 batters with a minimum of 300 plate appearances, Juan Pierre happens to be 29th in batting average, or near the top fifth of the league. In other words, I think he's alright in that department.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 01:10 PM) *Facepalm. Can you tell me where he ranks in OBP and OPS? Or hell, where's at in terms of batting average? His hits are some of the most empty in all of baseball. He's also getting a ton of PAs since he's a leadoff hitter. But no, let's look at a stat that doesn't take a plethora of things into context. Pierre's a replacement level player who only started to hit when we were already in the s***. His fielding in April also cost the Sox games. There's no use to defend him, you're fighting a losing battle. Can you tell me where in OPS a player's ability to go from first to third on a single to right field is denoted? Or a player's ability to go home on a double from first? It's an extra base that a high-OPS, slower player doesn't get, yet it's not picked up in that stat. Could you honestly argue that Pierre's intangible speed which earns him an extra base in every running situation against a much slower player is picked up by a stat like OPS? This is exactly why using OPS to measure Juan Pierre's total skill is a totally misguided venture. You don't look at Paul Konerko's stolen bases, and yet you want to measure Juan Pierre's power.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 01:07 PM) Come up with whatever garbage you have to refute that, nobody but the usual loonies are going to believe you. I have to go catch a flight. You all have a good weekend. I'm sure we all appreciate that you are an important man, to catch a flight after you resort to name-calling and degradation in order to make your points, rather than taking the time to actually look up data and back the s*** you claim up. If the usual loonies are the ones who actually do research to back up their opinions rather than just insult people, then yes, I think I'd rather listen to them.

I'm inclined to be much more patient with Morel than other players. I expect slight improvement from Morel. If we get rid of Walker I think Beckham will return to form as well.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 12:45 PM) he can't even steal anymore, It's statements like this that make detractors look ridiculous. Again, why are you so desperate to exaggerate? The dude CAN clearly steal bases. In fact, his SB/CS percentage since May 1st is exactly in line with his career rate. Unless you can prove that Ozzie automatically green-lighted him AND that he has had several count/situational missed opportunities, you cannot assume that the lack of offense/situations had SOMETHING to do with his lower totals. From a SB/CS perspective, Juan had an abysmal April. The rest is normal. Sorry you disagree; the numbers don't lie.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 12:32 PM) I don't know how to argue with you. Let's start with this: Juan had something to do with us starting 7-4 instead of 9-2, which I felt was no big deal. The rest of the team had a ton to do with the subsequent 4-18 stretch. People would like to believe the two games that made us 7-4 instead of 9-2 caused the downward spiral that led to our utter doom. I think it has a lot more to do with the 4-18 stretch that Juan Pierre's defense had little or nothing to do with.

Let's be clear. After Juan Pierre dropped two fly balls, the White Sox were 7-4, and Matt Thornton was still the closer. People are saying that those two dropped fly balls that ultimately resulted in the White Sox being 7-4 were more responsible for the 11-22 start than the subsequent 4-18 stretch in which Juan Pierre did not drop any fly balls? And we're also saying that Matt Thornton's role as closer was threatened by this? I don't think Ozzie or anyone else would agree with that.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:30 AM) Juan Pierre torpedoed Matt Thornton's season more than Matt did. This might be the most amazing thing I've ever read on this site.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:28 AM) It's ironic because GHibbard basically showed stats the other day that said after our bad start, the Sox had no chance to make the playoffs. Unless Detroit and the rest of the division won less than 85 games. You guys keep twisting this point.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:28 AM) It's ironic because GHibbard basically showed stats the other day that said after our bad start, the Sox had no chance to make the playoffs. No player was more responsible for that awful start than Pierre. Juan's a good guy who's had a solid 2nd half of the year, but there should be a ton of pissed off Sox fans if he's brought back next year when the more talented De Aza/Lillibridge combo could take over for cheaper and be more productive. Juan Pierre was more responsible than Matt Thornton and the rest of the bullpen for the 11-22? They blew 3-4 games IN A ROW.

Juan is also 11th overall in the AL in hits. Not that that means he's anything but total s***, of course.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:22 AM) So you're saying he's only attempted to steal 21 times the last 5 months? Then he's still worthless. Because attempting so few means, again, that he's no longer a legitimate base-stealer. I'm assuming your numbers are correct, as I don't feel like looking them up. Because you don't care to verify if the empirical evidence actually backs up your assumptions. Don't worry, I'll do the due diligence later with his gamelog.

I'll look at his gamelog later and we will see if the opportunities have been there. I'm not sure you can say there's necessarily a dropoff on his speed game when since May he's been stealing bases at his career percentage.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:15 AM) Again, you're trying to use a a couple weeks to mask an entire season. One of these days you will realize that a baseball season is 6 months and you can't break up every little component of the game, team or individually, into splits to suite your purpose. 5 months is a little component of the season? You're being ludicrous.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:07 AM) You're the one that keeps trying to break the season up into multiple intervals to make your points. 16 for his last 21? So that means he was, what, 9 for 20 before that? JP is nowhere near the SB threat he once was. This is not up for debate. And with his subpar defense, you have a below average baseball player that just happens to lead the team in plate appearances because of a brain-dead manager. You just said he was incapable of getting into scoring position. Perhaps you'd like to clarify that point.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:02 AM) Wait, please don't tell me you're trying to say he's been effective on the bases this year? Since his 5 for 12 April, he has stolen 20 of 27 bases, a 74% clip. His career steal percentage is 74%. I do not know if he has had the same opportunities to steal because of our anemic offense, but when in doubt, Ozzie sure likes to run. It might just be that his steal opportunities have been way down this season.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 10:40 AM) No, Juan was little-league embarrassing in April. He Had a decent (by his standards) May. He was s***ty again in June. He's played about as well as he's capable of playing since the break. But as has been reiterated ad nauseum, his skill-set is so limited that even a .285 BA doesn't contribute much in terms of run production. Now if he were stealing bases at his career clip, he'd be much more valuable. Right now? It takes at least two singles or a minimum extra basehit to knock him in because he's incapable of getting in scoring position on his own. Wow, are you really this desperate to exaggerate? Juan has stolen 16 of his last 21 attempts. How much higher of a percentage do you want than that? He stole second and third just the other night. He essentially duplicated his exact career numbers in May. I'm not sure what standard you are using or how you define "decent". I would say that he had a "good" month by his standards. I wonder if Pierre is having one of the best second halves of his career. Scratch that, I don't wonder it - it's pretty self-evident. Paul Konerko had a .244 July. Every player has at least one off month over a 6-month season.

It's kind of sad how certain people on this site rush to make fun of Juan Pierre defenders. This is a guy who is the anti-Rios (in terms of heart), but the naysayers just can't wait to jump all over anyone who is a fan of him. For two seasons, he's pretty much done exactly what we expected him to do coming in - hit about .280-.300 with no pop and some wheels. He had one s***ty month on defense and in terms of stolen bases, (it was mediocre offensively) and people just don't let up. It's pretty unreal.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 07:02 AM) Obviously not in April when he was one of the keys to us starting 11-22. Hmmm. Juan had a s***ty April, and he might have cost us 1-2 games, but it seems to me that the bullpen and other factors had much more to do with it.