Frankensteiner

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 12:32 PM) What is Gordon, 38? He's signed a 3 year deal worth $18 million. That's a huge gamble for teams to take on. At least Gordon looks good now. On the other hand, we KNOW Garcia sucks while still having $15M left on his deal, so what's your point?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 12:28 PM) If Philadelphia really is stupid enough to give the Sox Gordon for Garcia, it should be done immediately. Even Hawk is referring to Garcia as meat right now. Yet some people still think that's not enough of a return.

Just remember, this will all work itself out. Nothing to be alarmed about.... career averages and all that...

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 12:25 PM) Hawk/DJ are very pissed off at Garcia right now. Please God let that mean they know something about a move .

2nd and 3rd with 0 outs and we can't even get a single run off that. :puke

Awful AB by Paulie. I keep thinking we should hammer Wright, but he's 5-5 with a 4.25 ERA coming into the game which would automatically make him our #2 starter at the moment. So he's not that bad, I guess.

Only 10 more runs and I'll feel comfortable watching this game.

QUOTE(soxunited @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 11:20 AM) Lineup: LF Podsednik, Scott 2B Iguchi, Tadahito DH Thome, Jim 1B Konerko, Paul RF Dye, Jermaine C Pierzynski, AJ 3B Crede, Joe CF Mackowiak, Rob SS Uribe, Juan With Mack in CF, I wonder if we'll see another Freddy temper tantrum.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 10:31 AM) Besides Jose, everyone is pitching below their career avgs. And even Jose has dropped off from what he had been pitching like he was in the 2nd half of 05 and earlier this yr. It's like waiting on proven hitters to break out of their slumps. These guys are all proven, durable SP's. If they aren't injured, it's very reasonable to expect them to pitch better in the 2nd half Here are some pre-2006 career ERA avgs: Javy--4.28 current, 5.07 MB: 3.63, current, 4.43 Jon: 4.42, current, 5.37 Freddy: 3.93, current, 4.91 Saying our guys are pitching below their career averages is misleading. With Garcia, his career numbers should be thrown out the window because due to losing his stuff, he's a completely different pitcher than he was in the past. Vazquez is a similar case: he hasn't been very good the past 2 and a half seasons so the career numbers should have less meaning as well. And with Garland, if he returns to his career averages, he's still not very good, and we need him to be very good. But I noticed you didn't give us Jose's numbers. I'm assuming you're putting more weight in Jose recent performances instead of automatically thinking he'll return to career norms. Well, you can't have it both ways.

QUOTE(gosox41 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 08:36 AM) I've heard that before but I didn't expect them to get this bad. What it comes down to is that these guys made an extra 3 starts last year. And actually that's not accurate as I believe Garland only made 2 and Contreras made 4, assuming I remember correctly. Here's my assessment: Contreras-No drop of here. He's having a great year. Buehrle-He claimes he's 100% but he's not locating his pitches. He's gone through periods like this before in his career but I don't recall him getting lit up like this 3 starts in a row. Anyone else recall such a bad stretch from him? Garcia-I think the WBC is a joke and Garcia is a case in point. Besides the playoffs last year he had to take an early spring training to pitch in the WBC. It's no surprise his velocity is down. IMHO, he's hurt. I don't know that for a fact but can someone else here explain why his velocity left him the entire first half? Garland-Started slow by has been solid lately. If the playoffs started today, I'd make him my #2 starter behind Contreras. Vazquez-This guy is like Contreras in 2004. He has the talent to be a really good pitcher, but he's pitching as mediocre as he always is. I can't believe some team (was it the Yanks) gave him such a huge contract. Bob Buehrle will get better, just has to locate. As long as he's not injured, which he says is not the case, I expect him to get better. Garcia is either injured or off 'roids which is why you see the drop off in velocity. Regardless, we can't count on him to be a good pitcher for us anymore. Garland looks to be improving from his early season slump but it still remains to be seen whether or not he's the pitcher from last year or the guy he's been over most of his career. Vazquez is as inconsistant as he has been with the Yankees and D'Backs. Expecting him to actually be an effective starter at some point is putting a lot of faith in the White Sox and Cooper. So in summary, we've got 2 guys (Count, Buehrle) who will be fairly solid for the rest of the year. Then we need Garland to pitch like he did last year to stay in the race. Given his career and season numbers, I'm not sure if that's a reasonable expectation. Garcia looks done and Vazquez has just been bad the last 2 years. I don't see where this staff will just automatically rebound or improve. Buehrle will, but that's not enough. Meanwhile, we've got an offense with our best hitters (Konerko, Dye, Crede) producing career seasons. It's a little scarry to think what this team will look like if those guys return to their career norms in the 2nd half. This is why I believe we need to add another great player: starting pitcher is the first priority, but an All-Star SS or CF would ensure our offense keeps producing at a similar pace if some of our guys fall off.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 05:54 PM) No, he'll get more than that. If Burnett got 5 years/$55 million, Buehrle will get 5 years/$75 million. There's no way he gets that much. Market value fluctuates from year to year. If he wants $75 million, then I'm with fathom... trade him.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 05:46 PM) Also keep in mind that Contreras is going to be very old soon and that Vazquez and Freddy don't look like long-term solutions. And the loss of those three are going to free up over $30 million/year in payroll. I agree. I'm not all that encouraged by the long-term prospects (past next season) of our pitching staff. McCarthy looks promising but he's still unproven. Take out Buehrle, and we don't have that much left.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 05:39 PM) I agree, but if he'll net you a package like what he mentioned, you do it in a second. Remember, Buehrle's going to be very expensive soon. How much more expensive is he going to be? He's not a $15M pitcher. He'll get Tim Hudson money (IIRC, 4yrs/$44M) imo, which isn't all that much more than he's earning now. Anyway, trading Buehrle is just dumb. He may not be a dominating ace like Santana, Liriano, or even Sabathia, but he's very effective, throws innings, and isn't an injury risk.

Well, people got their wish. Ultimately, I think this move makes about a .5 game difference in the standings but we'll see. We've got much bigger problems... BTW, shouldn't we see angry Cliff by now?

If we were in a playoff series with either the Yankees or Red Sox, we'd probably go with Contreras-Buehrle-Garcia (well, Ozzie would). It seems like our best isn't good enough to beat either team so a move should be made if we want to compete with either club. Where would people rank us among the Tigers, Red Sox, and Yankees. With this pitching, I'm not sure how we can be anything but last.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 03:09 PM) I guess the key is what team would be the trading partner. The sox it seems are set on getting top talent in any trade of a SP as they should. The proposed deals so far [mets and Philly for gordon] don't cut it. Teams hovering around .500 need to keep all their assets. Only deep pocketed and teams loaded with talent could be paying the sox asking price I don't know why you think that. An All-Star closer for a struggling starting pitcher seems like a great return to me.

QUOTE(shoota @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 03:24 PM) I missed most of the game. What are the reasons why the Sox are losing big? Buehrle was bad (3 IP, 8 ER), there was some bad defense also, Politte finished us off. That's pretty much it. Offense didn't look great but it's difficult to focus when you're already down 8-0 after 3.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 03:20 PM) Outside of maybe another veteran bullpen arm, we're pretty much stuck with what we have. I know you've read the rumors on trade winds so I don't think anything is set in stone at this point.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 03:16 PM) Maddux is 2-12 with an era at around 6 since may. Prior has little to no trade value due to injuries. Zambrano isn't going anywhere. Lee isn't going anywhere. You're right about the others. I could even see Jones ending up with the Tigers. Maddux is at least as effective as Vaz and Garcia and we're actually talking about trying to pry Lastings Milledge for one of them in trade winds. I think he's got some value. I disagree about Prior also, he still has value and potential. Get him away from that mess, nurse him back to health with kid gloves and he can still be a great starter in the league. Some team desperate for pitching would be willing to give them a very good prospect, imo.

The Cubs are out of the race. Maybe they can just give us Zambrano? On a serious note, though, why wouldn't the Cubs just have a giant fire sale. Maddsux, Arm-Ram, Zambrano, Prior, Walker, DLee, Howry, Jones, etc. They have some really good players and they can get a lot in return. It's not like their fans can't get drunk while watching a young team.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 02:49 PM) Its time right now for KW to tell Politte if he wants to continue pitching he can go to Charlotte or he can be released and pitch for another organization's AAA affiliate. I knew Politte would suck in March. If they still think he has a chance to be helpful other than pitching batting practice, they are out of their minds. I agree with everything you say but I really can't get all that worked up about Politte. He's the mop up guy in the bullpen. We're not losing these games to the Yanks/Red Sox by relying on Politte. This game was over when our All-Star starting pitcher gave up 8 runs through 3 innings. Trying to figure out what to do with our starting staff should be KW's first priority.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 02:37 PM) My prediction: Roberto Hernandez will be on the White Sox by Tuesday in a deal including Sean Tracey. Roberto Hernandez = a lot of baserunners, which I guess is better than Cliff Politte = a lof of baserunners and a lot of runs.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 02:33 PM) cliffy should be just about done with the sox. if this outing doesn't do it , one more like it should take care of it. We've been saying that for like the past 6 outings.

Well, I hope option 1 is the one we choose. We need help in our rotation and opening up a spot for McCarthy is still better than sitting on our hands hoping our guys just turn it around. Getting Gordon for one of our starters would be the best of both worlds, as it improves our rotation AND bullpen. Plus it means we still get to keep all our prospects as trading chips for another move if someone good becomes available (Schmidt, Willis, Smoltz, Jones, etc.).

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 02:23 PM) Does everyone agree that they'd rather trade Garcia over Vazquez? Both would be nice. I still can't see Ozzie rather having Vaz over Garcia. QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 02:25 PM) Am I a bad fan for wanting Politte to get crushed this inning? If he does, he'll just be out there tomorrow. Ozzie is big on 2nd chances.