spiderman
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Posts posted by spiderman
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1 hour ago, poppysox said:
Grandal, Bummer, Kelley, Graveman, Lynn, Gio, and Anderson...all gone thank God!
Clevenger was OK and Hendriks didn't contribute.
DeJong/Mongomery, Lopez/new guy, Stassi/lee, Fedde are all better than who they replaced.
So far, I think Getz has done a good job of clearing the dead wood and improving the defense and chemistry until help arrives. New coaches and Bannister are also positives. Some health for Moncada, Eloy, Benintendi, etc. would help a lot. No way will this 2024 squad lose 100...especially when the offseason moves have been completed.
They cleared out the roster at the last trading deadline, let a few more players go (Anderson, Grandall, Bummer, Hendricks, Andrus, Clevinger) and have replaced them with Triple A depth. Maybe it's a bridge in a bad division to 2025, but what does that even mean? Are we really expecting significant talent from the minors to come up? Are they going to spend on free agents? It's hard to build anything sustainable without doing both.
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12 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:
Yea, I don't think they care about being competitive either. They care about the illusion of it, but not actually putting together a team that can win 82 or so games in order to satisfy some measure of "competitive". If they were trying to be competitive they would be adding 30 million in payroll and wouldn't be trying to trade Cease.
They are trying to cut payroll and do some half assed "rebuild" that has like a .1% chance of working while paying lip service to "competitive".
I think they believe that being around .500 will mean they are competitive and in the AL Central, that may be true most years. So, I think they can/will claim they want to compete, but that must be taken into context that they probably don't need to win 90 games to be competitive, and, if things bring right, can "compete" in the AL Central.
Agreed with your points though. This off-season, they are cutting payroll. They are trying to re-tool vs. rebuild, but these are not the moves a team that wants to win will make. Trading an ace with 2 years left only makes sense if you don't want to pay him. If you don't want to pay him, why would anyone think they are going to spend to actually compete? This will likely continue to be some patch-work roster.
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They aren't willing to spend on any significant free agents OR their own talent so they are capped already to only be competitive as long as their minor league system produces talent on a consistent basis. They use free agency to complement their roster, but the chances of adding impact talent is low.
They are cutting payroll right now and the roster looks awful on paper.
They probably won't fully rebuild, but will do some middling where they improve the defense, patch together a pitching staff and try to hang around in the AL Central.
There is no desire to win, it's more about being competitive.
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3 minutes ago, fathom said:
This is what happens when your manager has no presence, so the front office has to bring in “leaders”
Is Merriweather considered to be a leader?
Looking forward to Bernstein and Holmes making ridiculous comments about this move (if they sign him) because he didn't get vaccinated.
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1 hour ago, Sleepy Harold said:
Whit also hasn't been lg avg in OPS+ in four of the last five seasons
I don't understand moves like this. Is Getz aware of the steaming pile of pooh that is the starting rotation/bullpen? The holes at C, 2B, SS, 3B, LF, RF and DH? Even if you think Moncada and Jiminez play better, this team is awful on paper. Hard to see them competing and makes little sense to be overpaying (or spending at all) on 2B who haven't been at league average in OPS+ in recent years.
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Anyone see what Passan wrote about on ESPN+ this morning regarding Cease? Assuming it's just that the White Sox are engaged in trade talks with a few teams, but anything new?
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Yeah, I guess I don't understand the point of trading Cease to fill holes. If you're going to trade Cease, which seems like the likely outcome, they need to focus on getting a team to move 3 of their top prospects. Why do we care about trading for a 2B who isn't going to make much of a difference on a team that would likely lose 90+ games? Trading Cease means you are rebuilding. They may not want to use that word, but if they want to scare off the remaining fanbase, trade him for major league talent that just fills holes to "shake things up".
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If the White Sox are improving their infield defense, even with the lack of offense, is this the sign of a rebuild or a retooling?
Same on Bummer...they decide to improve the defense now after they trade him, but they added at least one starting pitcher (we know they aren't going to spend on aby significant free agent) and add a few spare parts (including that infield defense) .
Saying that, if they trade Cease and acquire 2 players who they expect to be part of the team for next year (say another starter and a RF), add a few more stop gap free agents for cheap....one more starter, 2 relievers another 2B....
Who is the team to beat in this division and can the White Sox compete with some mish mash of stopgaps?
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They have legitimate holes in at least 3 starting pitching spots, probably 2-3 reliable relievers are needed and then we're needing a catcher, 2B, SS and RF - that's not even addressing adding actual impact players as much as just filling holes.
Can they bargain shop on a few of these positions? That's probably what we're looking at if they don't want to compete in the market for top talent.
It's hard though to see them not moving Cease for 2-3 top minor league players who they think can contribute within the next year or so and help keep their payroll down.
I really don't see Jiminez being back either. He's a good hitter, but if he can't play a position and they are stressing defense....the only thing that can save him is his contract being more team friendly. Saying that, too many injuries.
I like the concept of having players play more than one position to win games. Moncada is an excellent 3B, but if they were to sign someone who can play 3B/SS, let's consider what helps the team win day to day.
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2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:
You continue to say this without having any knowledge these guys were even available. It's kinda nauseating.
I'm not sure which players were available or not, but the bottom line is that the White Sox have depended on minor league talent playing RF/2B in the middle of their supposed window for WS contention.
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18 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:
Getz said there are no untouchables. I can’t even fathom what it would take to deal him away and how many teams actually have the prospect currency to get a deal done. But at minimum you listen and see if another team is willing to do something stupid, although there are only so many Preller’s out there willing to pay a significant prospect price to get true impact talent.
You would have to receive at least 3 top 100 prospects (at least two in the top 30 or so).
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3 hours ago, Harry Chappas said:
I missed their follow up coverage on Clevenger when the MLB cleared him.
They are back to calling Clevenger names and said that MLB only cleared him because the wife/girlfriend only wanted him to get help (which he voluntarily agreed to do), but they are not shy in calling him a horrible person,e etc.
I still think their main issue with him is that he broke Covid rules. They keep suggesting that, even outside of the abuse accusations, that they should have known what a bad teammate/person he was, and this was well known, but they can only point to him breaking covid protocol in 2020; they have never mentioned what else would make him a bad teammate.
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On 8/7/2023 at 2:33 PM, flavum said:
Grandal wasn’t in the lineup the day before the break, so he wanted to leave. Grandal went in the clubhouse. TA said he’d take him to the airport himself. Grandal slapped TA across the face. TA goes 0-5x
I only heard this briefly mentioned on the Score, but did the producer who reported this have more than 1 source? Have any other reporters independently verified that this happened?
I'm not suggesting it didn't happen, but I would question it "Journalistic standards" ? were not folloowed, especially by that station.
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On 7/24/2023 at 11:51 AM, baseballgalaly said:
Obviously cleaning house in the FO should be the first priority, but how should they move forward from here? I'm at a loss.
They are more likely to re-shuffle the roster than a total rebuild, maybe free up some money, add some cheaper talent who can give them "flexibility" for next year's roster and their budget. It's hard to seem them going full in though on another rebuild.
Without knowing their budget, and how much money they have next off-season, they need to address C, 2B (probably will be in-house), SS (probably Tim Anderson), 3B (probably Moncada with his contract), RF (probably Colas)....but you can see here already that they are probably still going to bring back most of the roster.
Assuming they trade Giolito and/or don't bring him back next season, Lynn/Clevinger are also not likely to come back and it's hard to depend on Crochet or Kopech so they are Cease with a lot of questions. Any trades made before the deadline will probably bring back 1-2 backend of the rotation options for next season and/or bullpen arms assuming they trade 2-3 guys from the current roster.
Lots of holes, probably not much money to go spending to fill it, and little help from the minors.
This team is in a state of mediocrity.
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2 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:
Trade no matter what. Eat as much money as necessary to get the best return: Grandal, Giolito, Lopez, Andrus, Middleton, Anderson, Kelly.
Trade only if you get a really good return and don't have to eat salary: Lynn, Hendriks, Clevinger, Jimenez
Build around: Cease, Kopech, Robert, Moncada, Colas, Vaughn
I think the White Sox would be ok to pick up some salary for Lynn and Clevinger if they still saved some money. I don't think there's any chance though they would get anything of value in return other than $$$ savings.
Building around Kopech and Moncada is already asking for issues. Colas is not really someone I would say you build around either - he may end up being a good RF. Really, outside of Cease and Robert, the rest of the team needs a makeover.
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3 minutes ago, bmags said:
just last year the mariners traded for Matthew Boyd who had yet to pitch at that point of the season. He made their playoff roster despite not being a reliever.
The giants last year signed trevor rosenthal on July 21st for $4.5 million then traded him 10 days later to the brewers for tristan peters. He never pitched that year and hadn't pitched since 2020.
Those aren't bad examples so I'll give you credit for finding a few.
I would say Boyd is due 5.2M on a 1 year deal and was rehabbing so there was some expectation he could pitch. The team probably wouldn't have been on the hook for much more of that $5.2M by August (vs. Hendricks is probably due around $5M more still at the end of July).
Rosenthal seems like a closer comp to Hendriks...coming off so not a bad comp.
Bottom line, I think Hendriks situation is even more dicey - chemo, injury and larger contract. Not a good combo.
Could Hendriks be traded? Yes. You found some comps. Is it still extremely unlikely given the current situation? Yes.
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7 minutes ago, Quin said:
Ah yes, a sample size of one.
First time for everything! It's the new thing to do - acquire a former all-star coming off chemo and who now has an elbow inujury. Sames like a new competiive advantage.
Everyone loves Liam, Seems like a good guy. Teams aren't trading for him to be a good guy though in August if he hasn't been pitching with the issues he has.
Let's try and be realistic.
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38 minutes ago, bmags said:
Of course they will. Sox literally traded a guy who was on injured list at the time and didn't even play for rest of season to a contender looking for a reliever.
Yes, of course. Teams chasing a playoff spot routinely take on pitchers who haven't pitched basically all year, have questions about durability post chemotherapy and has an elbow injury....all while making $15M (est) a season.
Yes, of course!?
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38 minutes ago, bmags said:
Of course there is a return for Hendriks. It just depends what people consider a return.
Teams are not going to be trying to trade for a player, coming off a recovery from cancer and now with some sort of elbow issue. If he were to come back and look like himself, maybe there's some interest, but it would still be limited. Bottom line - he hasn't pitched much, makes pretty good money and has major health concerns. There is no current market for a player like that, no matter how much we respect him.
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1 minute ago, Lip Man 1 said:
Also let's not forget he's in his mid 30's now. He's no spring chicken.
Yep, if he was healthy and no medical concerns, I'd bring him back on the option. This team has too many holes to address though so I think the only path forward is a new deal that is more team friendly. It's possible that they could work it out because other teams will have the same concerns.
Assuming no rebuild and more of a light shuffling of upcoming free agents, the White Sox will probably have some money to spend (if they choose too) in free agency by moving on from Lynn, Clevinger, Hendriks, Grandall and a few relievers. Some of that money will go into raises, but there should be some left over to add a few pieces, but this team has no history of spending on bigger names and would probably keep it to more bargain shopping.
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17 hours ago, spiderman said:
Is there a return for Hendriks right now? I would be surprised if he had much value with his health status. I think the White Sox won't pick up his option though if there's any concern on his health (which seems likely to continue being a concern).
He can't have any value right now given his medical situation. White Sox will probably keep him and decline his option in the off-season. Maybe they work out a new deal where he can return next season, but I think the White Sox are more likely to move on.
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58 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:
If you believe Nightengale (JR's mouthpiece) Hendriks won't be traded regardless of his health status because "he is one of JR's favorites..." ?
The owner yet again sticking his nose into an area where it doesn't belong.
Is there a return for Hendriks right now? I would be surprised if he had much value with his health status. I think the White Sox won't pick up his option though if there's any concern on his health (which seems likely to continue being a concern).
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3 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said:
That's ok....we won't be competing next year anyway.
Biggest issue is TA has little value. Before the season, we could have gotten Rushing plus a solid SP prospect for TA plus maybe one other piece (value wise).
Now TA has no value, Hendriks can't be moved cause he is out and not back to being a closer anyway and Giolito alone for half a season won't be anywhere near enough for just Rushing alone.
I don't know that the White Sox are going into any kind of rebuild. That's not to say they wouldn't take a better prospect who is 2 years away vs. one who can make an immediate impact, but I think they will try to add 2-3 possible prospects for next season. I think Giolito can return 1-2 good prospects - if the starting pitching market is thin. Maybe they package him with a reliever to slightly upgrade return value.
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On 5/15/2023 at 7:56 PM, SouthSideGeorgia said:
With some assumptions (losing Giolito, not picking up Lance Lynn and Joe Kelly option)
Sox save potentially $43.525 million from ‘23 to ‘24.
But increases in Sox players contracts are $29 million from ‘23 to ‘24. Chunk of that is Moncada and Benintendi contracts increases
Therefore, a savings of only $14.525 million next year.
And Sox still need to sign potentially 2 starters, catcher, 2b and bullpen arms next year. Maybe we stand pat at bullpen, catcher and 2b… but you still have to get two starters.
The farm is devoid of starting pitching at the highest level maybe besides Davis Martin for next season. Then you have arbitration eligible players also that will make more money next year like Cease, Kopech and now Vaughn. ?
With our losing record, there is no way we don’t trade away assets. No way. There such a pending bloated payroll that the Sox have to get under control for a bad team. It’s inevitable.
No doubt we try trading away one year assets like Giolito, Middleton, Lopez, Grandal, Andrus, and Alberto. But only half may have any value. Based on where we stand and where we project next year, you also have to consider trading 2-yr assets like Anderson, Hendriks, Graveman, Clevinger, and Lynn.
This is a pretty big crunch coming up and Sox need to free up payroll. It’s coming…
Aren't Anderson, Hendriks, Graveman, Clevinger, and Lynn all on club options for next season? I don't think they would bring back Clevinger and Lynn for sure. Probably not Hendriks either. I think Anderson should be exercised since it's only a small raise and I'd rather gamble on him getting things figured out.
I would expect the White Sox will require two well regarded prospects for Giolito. One of them needs to be a starting pitcher that they would expect to be in the rotation next season. Right now, that rotation is dangerously thin with Cease and probably Kopech/Crochet (both of whom are not reliable). Although it would make a lot of sense to get Giolito signed, but he's unlikely to sign without testing free agency and the White Sox are not known for offering long-term deals to pitchers.
They will have some payroll flexibility, but a lot of holes to fill without much help coming from the minors. They will need help at C, 2B, RF and potentially creative solutions at 3B/SS. Jimenez, Burger, Colas and Remillard will all likely be in the mix, but it's really concerning to continue bringing back most of the same offense that struggles to score runs. A bigger shakeup is necessary with the poor performance and injury concerns.
On the pitching side, they will need to add 1-2 starters in free agency and probably 1-2 bullpen arms, although I think all of us are hoping they stop giving relievers multi-year deals.
I don't expect this team to rebuild, but "reload". However, they are doing it with only some payroll flexibility, and that's assuming they don't cut payroll after seeing attendance drop drastically this year.
Cease To Padres per Passan
in Pale Hose Talk
Posted
I would suspect that domino's will begin falling pretty quickly now . Where Cease falls in that order probably depends on the teams willing to spend $$$ on free agency vs. giving up prospects. He still may be on the backend unless a team steps up to the White Sox sooner.