[USA Today: White Sox Will Retain Robin Ventura, If He Wants to Return]

Again, even with another $100 million, or a 40+% increase in revenue, they would STILL be closer to last than first. I get people hate JR, but I wish they wouldn't let that color the actual facts.

 

And what would be the "facts" you could possibly offer to back up your assumption?

[USA Today: White Sox Will Retain Robin Ventura, If He Wants to Return]

The reality of revenue is this. The White Sox are no where near the big market teams in terms of dollars earned. The Yankees brought in $516 million in revenue last year. Tampa brought in $193 million. The White Sox brought in $240million.

 

Quit crying about how the Sox have no money to operate while all the others teams do. They have no one to blame but themselves. One franchise debilitating move after another over the years has taken its toll on the organization. The organization is in a huge market with a large fan base in a wide geographic area. Operate like a MLB franchise instead of a company softball team, and good things may come their way

 

Your harping on the Sox having no money to operate properly makes as much sense as the American car makers, decades back blaming the Japanese for stealing a huge share of the market, by being able to produce a quality product for the same money.

 

The way it works in American enterprise, is.. you offer a product to the consumer, and if you get no takers, you figure out a way to turn the tide and make the product more attractive to the consumer. In other words, assume some responsibility and accountability. It's not that hard to understand. It doesn't get anymore basic than that

[USA Today: White Sox Will Retain Robin Ventura, If He Wants to Return]

If Reinsdorf were so desperate to win, then he'd be after the manager's head after being told he had a competitive team 2 years in a row and then winding up a 4th place afterthought. At the worst he'd be saying "why not, we're desperate to win, try someone else"

 

Having the organization made of the guys he wants there is a bigger priority for him. Winning is lower on the list than that.

 

Best post I've read on this board in a while.. this nails it..

 

I don't believe Reinsdorf is "desperate" and is willing to do anything, at any cost to bring another WS title to the South Side...He obviously is deeply committed to running a harmonious corporate environment, where he's got his finger on the pulse of everything... you won't see any renegades in a JR run outfit...

[Who Will Be The Next Manager of the White Sox]

Give me one good reason that either of these guys would come out of retirement to manage the Sox,without saying money or because you want them to

 

At 73 yrs old, I doubt any money is worth the aggravation of being in the middle of a messed up situation, not to mention the media pressure....etc...

 

In 96', JR threw one of the bigger managerial contracts of the era at Leyland, and he turned it down... that was 20 yrs ago, and a much younger man..

[9/23 White Sox at Indians]

Is that true what Garfein said about this losing season a franchise record for the number of under .500 seasons in a row?

 

The Sox had 7 in a row. 1944-1950

 

The record is 9. 1927 - 1935

[U.S. Cellular Field history...]

How many seats in the upper deck at Wrigley have obstructed views? I think a lot of them do.

 

the ironic thing is the Fenway has a horrific number of seats with obstructed views, but yet, set a world record for consecutive sellouts.. and even without sellouts, they're never less than 30 K in attendance...

 

So how many years since the new Sox park has been in existence... have the number of unobstructed seats actually mattered?

[U.S. Cellular Field history...]

What is interesting is the article said the seats were just as far away from the field in both upper decks. The Sox park, and Camden Yards.

 

Upper decks are pretty similar all around. Sox fans were spoiled with the old park's upper deck. That isn't happening again. People need to get over it. Of course they don't even sell out of the $15 lower deck tickets with a free t shirt when Sale pitches, so most of the whining about the upper deck is much ado about nothing.

 

You make a valid point, but consider that the architecture of the new park, and decision to not renovate the old park, was mainly due and predicated by the decision to jam as many luxury suites in as possible.. The Sox are among the league leaders in MLB, in number of luxury suites available.. almost double that of Wrigley.. club and executive level seats can now be had for a song ... it's almost impossible to get an actual number on the number of luxury/corporate suites are actually sold, but I do know that they aren't hard to come by at all these days.. so really, what was the point?

[9/19 Sox at Royals]

I'm sure the front office doesn't see this as a problem. It's scouting.

 

Right, or blame the sucky Sox disloyal fans who don't show up the games, thus handcuffing the front office and forcing them to put a mediocre product on the field.

[9/19 Sox at Royals]

We just that with bad at bats by Garcia and Narvaez leaving the bases loaded

 

This has killed the Sox all year. The table setters at the top of the order get on base, and the black holes at the bottom of the lineup get "tight sphincters". To borrow a Hawkism. I'd love to know how Kenny Hahn plans to address this issue

[U.S. Cellular Field history...]

Like tom ricketts doesn't want that too? Or the steinbrenners? Or rocky wirtz?

 

No matter who finances the stadium, owners want to control where you spend your money as Joe fan.

 

Oh, as for economic development, the neighborhoods surrounding the park are littered with million dollar homes. And the stadium itself has generated over 209 million in tax Revenue since 1991. The park was financed for 168 million.

 

In theory, the bonds that were used to finance not only the stadium, but the renovations to the stadium, and the restaurant/bar on the north side of 35th, were to be used to improve the state infrastuture and other much needed building or repairs of public and municipal facilities.. How exactly does an athletic stadium fit into that criteria?

 

and $209 million since 1991? In 2016, the state spent $12 billion in pensions ALONE

 

Imagine if Ricketts got his way and had the entire Wrigleyville area leveled for his own purposes. from Clark to Sheffield from Addison to Roscoe? and throw in north of Wrigley from Waveland to Grace, from Racine to Sheffield.. just for fun...

 

Ricketts..can dream .. but Ricketts dreams.. became JR's reality...

 

 

[U.S. Cellular Field history...]

Something Liptak and the author fail to mention is that the Bess Armour Field design was NOT an official design submitted to the Sox or ISFA. It was a SABR project that was published AFTER groundbreaking for what is now known as Guaranteed Rate Field.

 

Never mind that the Field House for Armour Square park is now under landmark protection, or that you would be displacing a public park that is continually used by residents. Or that you have to buy even more land to build parking for the stadium and surrounding development.

 

But hey, f*** jerry and the city and state for approving a design that was actually submitted for bid review.

 

So you're okay with entire neighborhoods and hundreds of homes being displaced for the current parking situation?

 

there were plans to accommodate parking on the east side of the Ryan, with pedestrian overpasses and walkways erected..

 

but again, it's all a mute point, because it was never seriously considered...

 

the reason the Bess design never became an official design submitted to the Sox or IFSA, is because the Sox organization made pretty damn sure it was going to get ignored, seeing that it was in the way of what they wanted... as far as the public park and the field house.. a new park and field house was to be created on the site of the old Comiskey Park, with the old playing field used for public use...

 

 

 

from the Chicago Reader- 6/2/1988

 

The most important factor in the failure of this well-thought-out, interesting, and provocative proposal to even become a part of the discussion is simple: the White Sox won't consider it.

 

The White Sox' only comment last July, buried in Rapoport's column, came from executive vice president Howard Pizer, who sniffed, "It would seem to me that someone genuinely interested in putting forth a proposal for anything other than publicity purposes would talk to the prime tenant."

 

Bess has tried to talk to the prime tenant. "I tried to invite Pizer to look at it," Bess says. "He felt that by proposing it, I was making it more difficult for the Sox to do what they wanted to do." Indeed.

 

Pizer last week refused to discuss any aspect of the White Sox situation, saying, "We are maintaining a strict no-comment policy." The owners, of course, are talking only to governors these days.

 

How about the Sports Authority? The chairman of the authority's governing board, Thomas Reynolds Jr., said last week that he had seen Bess's proposal, and, "Conceptually, I think it's a neat idea." But he was brutally candid about its prospects: "It's not doable, because of the demands of the Sox. They've got [the plan], and they said they're not interested. If they're not interested, we're not interested."

[U.S. Cellular Field history...]

At the Chicago Baseball Museum site there is a terrific story on the history of U.S. Cellular Field including quotes from the architect who unveiled the design for the original Armour Field back in the late 1980's.

 

Thoroughly researched, it sheds some light on the political maneuverings, how and why the Sox placed the park where they did and what could happen in the future.

 

Here is the link if anyone is interested:

 

http://www.chicagobaseballmuseum.org/files...ss-20160913.pdf

 

Mark

 

Lip, I always appreciate your passion with White Sox history. You can tell its in your blood, as it is mine.

 

Great article, insightful and well though out.

 

This isn't necessarily a knock on JR, and who knows, maybe he would do it all differently if he could. That being said, I think that The rejection of the Bess design was a serious miscalculation. In hindsight, the Armour Square park built north of Old Comiskey would have completed rejuvenated the entire area from the Ryan to Wallace, and from 31 St all the way to Pershing, making it a potential tourist/entertainment/urban living area, rivaling Lakeview/Wrigleyville

 

In 1987-1988, JR had no more interest in building a park that was advantageous to the development of the south loop/Chinatown/Bridgeport area than the man on the moon. Hell, his choice was to to book the city altogether and hi-tail it to the burbs. As was pointed out very clearly in the article, he then jumped on the chance to build a suburban style isolated park at 35th and Shields

 

I lived in the South Loop in the late 80's, and at that time it was CLEARLY evident that the south loop/Bridgeport area was ripe for development in terms of entertainment/urban living. Bess clearly foresaw this, indicated by his fan friendly/neighborhood integrated park, albeit (and here's the kicker) with a smaller capacity for both suites and seating

 

[White Sox Listening on Sale]

merely pointed out that Sox fans simply dont show up when they need to. Its an unfortunate truth

 

Right there.. is s far reaching of a generalization as can possibly be imagined... Some of us have been Sox fans for nearly a half century, and have shown up year after year, despite all kinds of BS.....we're talking SoxFests, Sox training camps, charity events..etc... So please spare me

 

Who are you or anyone to dictate whether fans should or shouldn't show up at games? Who anointed you the author of "Proper Sox Fandom.. a guide for the proper fan?"

[White Sox Listening on Sale]

Captain, Thad, SS2K5, just stop talking to each other. You three turn threads into nonsense repeating the same tired things over and over. Guess what? you wont change each others minds. The end.

 

Point well taken, and duly noted.

 

Just to clarify. You have an admin of a Sox fan board that takes every opportunity to rip and belittle Sox fans. Doesn't that strike you as odd? it's tiresome and annoying.

 

Shouldn't putting out fires effectively begin with squelching the source?

 

[White Sox Listening on Sale]

And I'm saying it's a silly hypothetical because they are not going to improve (in terms of number of wins) year over year by trading 3 or 4 of their best players for prospects, Sale included. Did they trade their best player before the 1990 and 2000 seasons?

 

The state of baseball, the state of the Sox prior to 1990 and 2000 were no where near where things are now. Think about what you post, before you post.. That would be awesome

 

[White Sox Listening on Sale]

I am nothing like the typical Sox fan. I don't require years of winning to go to games.

 

There's a team on the north side of town that just might be the the ticket for you. They're called "the Lovable Losers"

 

Check it out!!

[2017 Lineup]

Name one team in the past 10 years that has undertaken a full rebuild with a core as young, talented, and cost controlled as Sale, Q, Rodon, Anderson, Eaton, and Abreu.

 

I'm pretty sure everybody gets it.. you're trying to hammer home the fact that the Sox are fools for busting up a team with a core that's affordable and controlled.. a core that includes 3 strong top of line starting pitchers, a SS of the future, and two solid offensive players…

 

Also, it's pretty obvious at this point you're just gonna continue to hammer without trying to understand or taking into consideration any other point of view other than your own..

 

You wanna play fantasy baseball and mix and match players for your contending/core intact 2017 White Sox.. that's fine..

 

The fact is, other than your core players of Eaton, Abreu, Anderson.. the entire lineup pretty much needs to be addressed…as well as 2 back end starting pitchers, and a bullpen who's only saving grace really, in order to avoid the disaster of 2016, is two guys coming back from season ending injuries and hopefully returning to form…

 

As has been pointed out numerous times, the Sox are in a bind with their "reload".. because of two factors.. a) weak free agent market for the next two seasons b) with attendance in 2016 only averaging less than 1000 more per game over 2015, the very unlikely scenario of any significant increase in payroll… furthermore, even with a moderate jump in payroll, there's no convincing argument out there that the available acquisitions within budget are gonna make any real solid significant impact

 

 

Either way, there's no guarantee at all than any of the "core" will be traded away… so this whole argument could all be for naught…

 

If there's any one thing I would hope you would take away for all of this .. it's this: a rebuild with your bargaining chips being probably the most premier players available on the market, is something the Sox organization has never been in a position to take advantage of.. "a retool' is something that has been attempted over and over and over again with the same predictable sad, frustrating results

[2017 Lineup]

I'm convinced you are Kenny Williams.

 

Pretty close...now add Tebow and it's a slam dunk

[Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana]

Don't forget future middle of the rotation starter Nestor Molina! Check out these Kenny quotes from 2011. In his eyes they already tried "rebuilding" back in 2011-2012:

 

http://www.espn.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id...s-nestor-molina

 

I think this is the same type of "rebuilding" that can be expected this offseason, which is why I predict their first move is to trade David Robertson.

 

2011 was a Classic Kenny Williams "go for it" year if there ever was one…. signing Crain and Adam Dunn, and extending AJ and Konerko…

 

So if this is the type of "rebuilding" you are predicting for 2017, then we are truly f###ed

 

As far as your Robertson prediction.. I hope JR is hungry, because if what you predict is true, he's gonna be chomping down on some salary….

[Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana]

So what's the plan then? Who are we trading and what are we getting back? You can talk in generalities all you want but at least I have provided specific names for my plan to compete next year. What's your plan?

 

True, you've provided specific names.. but you've also predicated most of your scenarios on the fact the JR woke up from a dream and a vision one night, a vision where he magically and mystically increased Sox payroll from middling, at least upper middling…

 

Here's my plan.. I think YOU should be the GM .. screw Hahn, screw Kenny.. you're the man with the plan to take the Sox to the promised land… to walk the disgruntled and miserable fandom from the darkness...

 

It's funny how you're challenging people for names and specifics, when the folks who are actually being paid to make the deals, probably aren't even sure at this point what is and isn't on the table….

 

My Plan? Let's see the Sox let go of the fact that they are Kings of Baseball when it comes to having the sweetest cost controlled players in MLB…. Then, let's see the Sox make some SERIOUS efforts to get the best and I mean, best in the biz.. scouts and talent evaluators….

 

Then, let's make Kenny Williams accountable for every dumb silly ego driven football-type move he's ever made.. and ever dumb silly thing he's ever said…

 

Let's find a manager who didn't play for the Sox (Martinez being the possible exception) in the 80's, 90's or 00's.. who actually has some professional coaching or managerial experience…

 

Let's figure out what exactly Don Cooper is contributing to the organization at this point, and if there's another out there better…..

 

Let's find a hitting coach that absolutely refuses to let a player pick up a bat until that player has a plan against the given pitcher that day…

 

Let's analyze and pick apart our Central division opponents, and build a team around beating THEM, instead of building a team around a core of contract friendly, cost controlled players

 

And of course, as a priority, lets AGRESSIVELY shop both Sale and Quinana this offseason .. no, not mid season 2017.. THIS OFFSEASON.. and work from there.. the goal being an influx of properly evaluated young AND more established talent…

[Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana]

So how do you define "time to tear it up" and "shake this disaster at its core"? You clearly do not want to wait until next July to "tear it up" so I can only assume you want to "shake this disaster at its core" this coming offseason?

 

You can read into it however you chose, but I interpret "tear it up" as abandoning the status quo and approach, as the Sox try to right the ship for the 2017 season.

 

apply a fresh attitude and, like most intelligent business enterprises do consistently, come up with a new battle plan when things don't work.. instead of trying to fabricate a million and one excuses and woulda-shoulda-couldas when you pick apart the last failed campaign…

 

and again, not really sure what is so hard for you to understand here.. trying to launch your primary rebuild mid-season isn't the wisest approach, because of the fact that teams in contention for the last couple of months, will be less likely to include establish ML'ers as part of any package….

 

 

[Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana]

Unfair or not, the Sox fan base would absolutely expect to see immediate results from a top 10 prospect that is "MLB ready" involved in a Sale trade.

 

To be perfectly blunt, that's BS

 

I believe your typical Sox fan would be much more willing to watch a touted prospect take their lumps, than watch a Shields and Robertson wet the bed, or watch an endless parade of middling veterans "underachieving"

[Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana]

By the very fact that there's an argument over which seasons end the fans were the most pissed off and frustrating, should be proof enough that somethings gotta give with this organization..and I don't mean let's f*****g re-load and repair the Titanic

[Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana]

we're not going to agree on this. you can believe whatever you want to believe that trading all of our vets for prospects will result in a Cubs-like turnaround. in my opinion, that is even more far-fetched than the retool and competing next year scenario I proposed.

 

I never suggested the Sox trade all of their vets for prospects.. I said the Sox have a golden opportunity this offseason, in a sellers market, to command prospects and established major leaguers for assets that will command more than simply lateral moves, as you are suggesting in your re-tool scenario...

[Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana]

If they unload everyone but Sale and Q, they sure as heck could afford extending Sale and Q if they wanted or they could go out and sign Manny Machado and Andrew McCutchen for true "all-in" seasons 2019 and beyond. I know that would be out of character for this franchise to sign high profile FA's but realize that there are more ways to rebuild than just tear the whole thing down to the ground until nothing is left. It is possible they would consider breaking character ahead of the new TV deal and possible sale of the franchise by landing a big star or two, I wouldn't rule it out completely especially if the rest of the payroll is already suppressed.

 

You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you…

 

First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire…

 

Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it..

 

with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves….

 

But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender…