Jack Parkman

No, I agree with you. I don't want Abreu back in 2020 at this point. The only reason to bring him back is on a 1 year deal as a bench bat.

All 91 mph fastballs are not created equal. A 91 mph fastball with elite spin can still be incredibly effective. C'mon Fathom you know better than that. It isn't likely for a pitcher to even reach the majors throwing in the low 90s without elite spin.

This is an awesome post. I'm probably going to spend a lot less time on this site this coming winter. All of the evidence points to Eeyore Murphy T. Ass returning. If this board is going to become insufferable again, I'm not going to subject myself to it nearly as much. All of the evidence points in the direction of inaction and I don't want to hear the whining. I don't need that shit anymore.

Love the thread title.

I posted it in the Hahn/offseason thread. It's in there.

I really don't want to be the Debbie Downer/Negative Nancy, but everyone brings up those type of points and that is exactly what Josh Nelson was discussing on Twitter this morning. It's impossible to argue against them going the Pirates way when all evidence points in that direction. We're all going to pull our hair out of our heads if the only thing they get out of this is a few ALDS or wild card game appearances. The Pirates sucked for 22 years, built up a good system, and all they got out of it was a few NLDS/WCG appearances.

I've been repeating myself about it too. You only play service games with the 1st wave of talent. The 2nd and 3rd waves you get up as soon as they're ready. Eloy was a completely different situation because Moncada et al. hadn't established themselves yet. Kopech will be up before 2026 as well. The bolded is really important for other ppl to understand. Robert/Madrigal are the 2nd wave so they should be up here as soon as the FO deems them MLB ready. I feel like the FO has mindfucked themselves because it took Moncada and Giolito 1.5 seasons to get their shit together. It completely screwed up their entire plan. If anything, that should help them bring Robert/Madrigal up sooner, but somehow it's having the opposite effect. I don't think that Moncada or Giolito could have learned what they need to in order to become successful MLBers in Charlotte. Somehow, I think the FO does, and that is why they're being conservative. (to put it nicely)

Dude we've been on the same page for 2 months now. Not calling up Robert and Madrigal at the start of the next homestand is really stupid. Playing service time games with them is robbing Peter to pay Paul. They're past that point in the rebuild now. If things were still going poorly and Moncada/Giolito/Anderson had not improved since last year, I'd get it. Those three took a huge step forward and they, along with Eloy are the current "core 4" and those guys need to be maximized while they're here.

I have no arguments with that and have been advocating for that type of hire for a decade.

28 XBH is still a lot though for a player that hits as well as he does. Also, he was dealing with a wrist injury last year and his XBH% has gone up A TON since June. I'd consider his .451 SLG closer to his true talent than under .400. I'd think he's a .420-.440 SLG guy in MLB. Just a lot of those XBH are going to be 2B and 3B. Wrist injuries sap power. Once it was about a year past his injury at OSU, he started hitting for gap power much more consistently. I was a fan of the Madrigal pick when it happened, but I had no idea about the wrist injury and was concerned when he slugged .370 or so last year. Then the wrist healed up and the gap power returned. He's the guy we all thought we were getting. He's going to hit .310+ with 30+2B, 5+ 3B, 5 HR and a BB% in the 7-9% range.

I agree, but it all comes down to what Jerry wants. If he doesn't want to give out that type of deal, then it wasn't going to happen regardless of whether or not KW/RH were whacked in 2016.

They could sign Didi Gregorius to take Madrigal's spot. Not that hard actually. The bolded is a huge misconception about Madrigal. He does everything well above average except hit HR. He walks a decent amount, he makes a metric shit ton of contact, he hits for "Dead Ball Power" as I like to call it(2B/3B), he's super fast and plays a GG 2B. I'd like to keep him as well, but if it comes down to it and the other FO values him properly, I'd move him in the right deal. He's slugging over .400 so it isn't like he has no power whatsoever, and that has gone up substantially since he moved to AA. He slugged .451 there. XBH still matter. I used to think about him in the same way you did until I dug deeper into his numbers. He's also fast enough and good enough at stealing bases to turn a lot of his singles into doubles and triples. Modern baseball needs more Nick Madrigals.

Of course, that is why I added the disclaimer. I used him as an example of a type of pitcher to trade Vaughn or Madrigal for. I know they're not getting Flaherty, but I think they could get someone like him.

If you squint a bit you can see the makings of a decent bullpen. They have two darn good lefties in Bummer and Fry. Colome is here for now, they need to find some more RH arms out of the pen. The SP isn't as dire as you think either. They don't necessarily need a Cole/Strasburg type, but it would be nice if they could land one. I keep coming back to Bumgarner. He shouldn't be nearly as expensive and he's a good bet to be #3 quality for his entire contract. They're not 10 pitchers short. Lopez still has upside, he can be a #4-5, Giolito and Cease have TOR stuff, how much they'll put it together remains to be seen. Kopech is coming back in March, idk wtf they're doing with Rodon.

Agreed on Vaughn. I'd include Madrigal in that list. I'd consider moving Madrigal or Vaughn, but only in a 1-1 deal for a pitcher with 4+ years of control and also is cheap. If the Cardinals came and offered Flaherty straight up, that is the type of deal I'd consider. (just as an example) Madrigal and Vaughn don't seem entirely necessary, I agree. Madrigal is a unicorn though and I'd imagine every FO has him valued differently. I think there's a good chance an ace emerges from the Giolito/Kopech/Cease trio.

The Sox don't need more Cordell/Medeiros types. That is what the Tigers got for Greene. I'll keep Colome, thank you. This year was different because there's no waiver trades. This was a completely new experience for everyone. You can't draw conclusions based on past deadlines, nor can you draw any future inferences. This TDL was its own animal. I'm going to say this: If teams continue to be stingy with their prospects, fewer deals are going to get done in July. Eventually something has to give. Grienke was the only major player dealt at this deadline, and he didn't even get that much with AZ picking up a decent chunk of money. It's eventually going to turn into a giant game of chicken. What ever happened to the old-fashioned July Baseball trade? The Indians pulled one off, and I'd like to see more of that. More veteran or young established players traded for each other based on team needs, please.

Are you talking about relievers of all kinds or closers only? Giles and others got hurt, and it ended up being only Colome, Greene and Vazquez with closing experience. It is nearly impossible for the Sox to get the type of pitcher they need via trade. They need a TOR arm to take the pressure off of the kids. The Sox don't have much of value to trade from their farm other than guys they can't afford to trade. Any deal for a pitcher, someone is going to ask for at least one of the big 5, and those guys aren't going anywhere. The Sox aren't in the position to trade Kopech, Cease, Madrigal, or Vaughn and Robert better be completely off the damn table.

As long as Robert/Madrigal stay in AAA and it is before Labor Day, I'm going to continue to complain about it. If neither are up after Labor Day, there's no reason to b**** anymore because it's obvious they're coming up on tax day 2020. If they're not calling Robert and Madrigal up to start the next homestand or by Labor Day, I have no idea what they were doing with Kopech last year. If Kopech was ready last August, then Robert and Madrigal are ready now.

This is very true, but the market didn't set itself until early Wednesday morning. Once it was clear that it was a huge buyers market, it was obvious they weren't doing anything. If the market changed a little bit and real talent became available, that would have been a completely different story.

Jesus Aguilar got traded Wednesday, FYI. https://www.mlb.com/player/jesus-aguilar-542583

Go read my edit. Kenny got impatient and he thought they could squeeze a few extra bucks out of the deal, so he blabbed to his BFFs Bob and Bruce. He ended up holding mr. johnson in his hand. Kenny needs to quit negotiating in the media. It isn't 2008 anymore. I don't even blame Jerry and Rick for it anymore. The Machado fiasco is 100% on Kenny. They were going to get an awesome deal and KW had to go ruin it.

WTF? This deadline was definitely the furthest thing from a seller's market. It was a buyer's market extraordinaire. Would you have traded Colome for the return that the Tigers got for Greene? I wouldn't have, and both players have the same amount of control. Hahn did the right thing by telling the contenders to go pound sand.

The Machado Fiasco. What is horrible about the whole situation is that KW was dumb enough to leak stuff to the media, and then they got the Padres involved. Had Kenny not blabbed to Nightengale/Levine, they probably would have been able to pull off the 8/250 with the two option years. Kenny's big mouth cost them Machado. Jerry and Rick need to block Nightengale and Levine from Kenny's work phone this winter. Whenever you hear Sox stuff from those two you know it's coming from Kenny because Bob and Bruce are KW's BFFs.

That would be ideal. They could call up Robert Monday and it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think they'll call up Madrigal until he has a bit more time in AAA, given that he's only played 2 games at the level. Best case scenario at this point is Robert at the beginning of the next homestand and Madrigal on 9/1. I don't think they're calling up either before 4/15/2020, but I hope they can correct their rectal-cranial inversion before the end of the month. That is abslolutely the wrong move and both guys could have made the jump from AA to MLB.

The early 2010s Pirates had a good young team, and didn't supplement it with FA. They never won anything. The Astros, in the same situation later in the decade, spent what they needed to in order to give them a chance to win. They have a ring. That is the choice the Sox have: Be the Pirates, who make the playoffs a few times but nothing more, or be the Astros, a perennial powerhouse. Nelson thinks they've already decided to be the Pirates.