WCSox

QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 7, 2009 -> 12:01 PM) Why don't you start a new thread and quit hijacking my thread? I asked you to justify your "Frank is the greatest Sox player ever" statement and you threw a "You hate Frank!" hissy fit. When you make dubious claims on this board, you're going to get called on it. Again, you fail to recognize the obvious. Name a modern-era pitcher who could throw 2900 innings and 250 CGs over just 13 seasons, while being absolutely dominant in the prime of his career. I don't know what's worse: your assertion that Frank is the best ever and that Ed Walsh shouldn't even be considered, your refusal to defend your position, or your assertion that the Sox should re-sign Frank to some stupid, symbolic one-day contract. Combined, they make for one really poor thread.

Alright, so I found that if I access it from the front page, rather than the Scoreboard page, I get a WSCR option. Unfortunately (but not surprisingly), the audio feed is choppy and the volume is unusually low). As the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

I've listened to about five or six ST games this year, and haven't even seen WSCR as an option on the menu. Same deal today. Went to WSCR's web site a couple minutes ago to listen live and, as expected, got some talk show.

I may have missed an earlier thread that discussed this issue, but what's with the lack of home team coverage? I haven't been able to get The Score's radiocast on Gameday Audio yet this year. Anybody know what the deal is?

QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 7, 2009 -> 08:54 AM) So you are going to compare a Dead ball era pitcher to our franchise leader in just about every offensive category, a guy who was clean during a tainted era? You obviously have some hatred for Frank Thomas. Get over it. Yeah, and that would explain why a #35 jersey currently hangs in my closet. Good one. You're obviously a Frank fanboy who is massively biased in dismissing the accomplishments of a HOF pitcher who is the all-time career leader in ERA (1.82) and has a career 1.00 WHIP. Walsh's 13 years with the Sox included a 40-win season, two 27-win seasons, three 300+ inning seasons, and two 400+ inning seasons. Walsh was clearly one of the greatest pitchers to ever play the game and your dismissal of him as a "dead ball era" pitcher is nothing short of weak. I'm not advocating Walsh as the greatest Sox player ever, but using him as an example of the folly of comparing completely different players from completely different eras.

QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 6, 2009 -> 09:18 PM) What are you talking about? I'm talking about THIS... QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 07:49 PM) He has the greatest numbers in franchise history. He is the greatest White Sox player of all time. Please explain how Frank was a "greater player" than Ed Walsh, and provide your basis for comparison. The last time I checked, pitchers are players as well. My point is that, unless your team was lucky enough to have Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or your franchise is only a decade old, it's almost impossible to determine a franchise's "greatest player" of all time. Was Stan Musial really a better player than Bob Gibson? Comparing players who put on a Sox uni 80 years apart is almost inherently a case of "apples and oranges," and comparing position players to pitchers muddles the situation even further.

QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 6, 2009 -> 08:01 PM) No. You are STILL not reading it correctly. You still have not acknowledged point #1 and have not come to the realization that I did not bring up Collins. Start posting facts. You are the one with a FLAWED analysis. You provide strong opinions with no substance. I realize that this may come as a shocker to you, but pitchers are players as well. Care to explain how you're going to compare Frank to Ed Walsh?

QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 6, 2009 -> 04:20 PM) Why aren't you reading the thread correctly? 1. Read the 1st post word for word. No, I'm reading it correctly. It's your analysis that's flawed. Having the best numbers in franchise history and being the greatest player in franchise history are not the same thing.

QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 6, 2009 -> 09:36 AM) If you compare White Sox Careers: Thomas has a higher OBP, OPS and SLG %. He also has more Hits,Walks, Total Bases, Runs,RBI, HR,Doubles and extra base hits. Collins has Thomas on Batting Average and Stolen bases. Why are you comparing stats from a player who played in the early 1900s to those from a guy who played 60 years later?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 5, 2009 -> 01:21 PM) No. Q hits 3rd, and his awesomeness projects to the spots around him and absorbs fear in a bell curve shaped pattern. And the legend of Carlos "Gaussian" Quentin is born.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Apr 5, 2009 -> 06:53 AM) 1. he wasn't the greatest player who ever played for the sox, that would be eddie collins Or maybe Shoeless Joe or Ed Walsh. IMO, there's no one player that stands out as the Sox GOAT. QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Apr 4, 2009 -> 02:08 PM) The Big Hurt burned those bridges after 2005. I would love for this to happen, but it will take a long time. I agree that Frank won't be playing in Chicago as long as Kenny's the GM. Too much bad history, too many personality conflicts between the two, and Frank would probably never make it out of Charlotte.

Given how he was able to carry on after massive over-use/abuse in Cuba, I'd have to say that Jose is one of the most physically tough pro athletes I've ever seen.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Apr 4, 2009 -> 09:13 AM) The rallying call of the baseball retarded. I'm looking at you Scott f***ing Merkin who just compared Dewayne f***ing Wise to Grady f***ing Sizemore. Wow. Talk about losing one's journalistic credentials...

QUOTE (almagest @ Apr 4, 2009 -> 12:29 AM) Dotel was 29 in 2003. Putz was 29 in 2006. That's why I said to be careful of age when comparing them Yeah, Dotel is past his prime and Putz is still in his. Yet another reason why nobody wanted to pick up Dotel's $6 million this year. You're quoting numbers from 4+ years ago, which aren't relevant to what Dotel is projected to do in 2009. Dotel also put up these numbers PRIOR to undergoing reconstructive elbow surgery. CLEARLY, Tommy John surgery has had a permanent and negative impact on Dotel's pitching. Absolutely. No way that Dotel gets $6 million/year in today's market. I have no idea what Putz would've gotten as a setup man. I don't think that he would've signed as a setup man if he were a FA anyway. I'm thinking that Putz would've garnered maybe two years, $8 mil as a closer in this market, with Dotel getting maybe one year at $3 mil (one year due to his age and injury history). I agree with this. Before the elbow surgery, Dotel was a f'n bad-ass. But I don't see how that's relevant to their current ability and market value.

QUOTE (almagest @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 04:03 PM) Please explain how Dotel doesn't have the talent Putz has, You're kidding, right? Putz 2006: 0.919 WHIP, 36 saves 2007: 0.698 WHIP, 40 saves Dotel hasn't had a season like that since 2003, before undergoing Tommy John surgery. Putz suffered a hyperextended elbow and rib cage injury last season. Unlike reconstructive elbow surgery, neither of those are expected to affect Putz over the long-term. Huh? If he were a FA this winter, Dotel wouldn't have made anything near to the $5 million that Putz garnered. Putz is younger than Dotel and has been a MUCH better pitcher (when healthy) in recent years.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 10:34 PM) ^Sorry for the page-long post there. That thing is probably full of grammatical errors but I don't really give a f***. The logic is there, and anyone who disagrees can bite me. I'm not have time to address every uninformed and incorrect assertion that you made above. What I will say is that if you think that closers and middle relievers have the same market value and that Dotel is has anywhere near Putz's talent, you have no idea what you're talking about.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 07:34 PM) I think it was REASONABLE to think that Owens might be a better option that Taveras, because Taveras was coming off an injury, and his ST statistics were pretty nearly identical. Of course, head-to-head, he's a much better defender, but Owens/Anderson will give you better overall stats and comparable defense and SAVE $5-6 million or whatever Jocketty ended up overspending. If money wasn't an issue, I'd take Taveras over an Owens/Anderson platoon. The problem with the latter scenario is that you get substandard defense and no power against RHPs, and horrible OBP against LHPs. Not that Taveras is a five-tool player or anything close to it, but the Owens/Anderson platoon presents a less complete player... if that makes any sense. Considering the current market, I agree that Jocketty overpaid for Taveras. Very skilled player, but he's only put together two really solid seasons.

Off-topic but congrats, Bears fans.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 01:55 PM) Personally, I think owners could be using collusion with the fans. Some cities will see drastic dropoffs in attendance. Some, like the White Sox , are expecting the same to higher attendance. I really think the White Sox next year, if they aren't going to raise payroll and continue to use the economy as a crutch, freeze prices or lower them, and come up with a dollar menu at the park like many teams are doing. The White Sox are using the economy as an excuse, yet not offering their paying customers any of the perks other businesses usually have to offer in times like these. I don't think things are as bad for them as they want you to believe. I basically agree with this. I'd be shocked if the owners weren't secretly colluding to drive down prices. Although I'd be surprised if Sox attendance was similar to or higher than last summer. Unless this team really catches fire (which seems unlikely), I just don't see it. If attendance sags through 2010, Kenny will put away the checkbook and we'll get another "The Kids Can Play" roster like we saw in the late '90s and late '80s.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 02:28 PM) I'm comparing good offensive players to Dye, and you seem to be missing the entire point. Those players I named, with the exception of Dunn, signed early. Other players got what they did because they wouldn't bring their salary demands down. Because a player forced himself out of an $8M+ per year contract and then ended up signing for around $5 plus incentives doesn't mean what he received is market value. Dye's market value after last season was a lot higher than what you peg him at. So are you saying that Abreu only got a one-year $5 million deal because he signed late, and that his age and eroding skills have nothing to do with it? Yep, and that's exactly what the Sox did with Vazquez and Swisher. Thanks for proving my point. Why are you comparing closer salaries to middle reliever salaries? Wood has actually succeeded as closer in recent memory. The Mets were able to over-pay Putz to be a setup man because they're one of about three teams that can still afford to over-pay players. That's a pretty narrow market. Putz is also a much better pitcher than Dotel, yet still makes less. Your cherry-picking of Putz's stats last year (when he battled rib and elbow injuries) notwithstanding, Putz's '06 and '07 numbers completely blow away anything that Dotel's done in the past four years. Give me an example of a 7th-inning middle reliever who makes $6 million/year. And don't tell me that Dotel is a closer. He hasn't been a consistent and effective closer since his time in Houston. Hell, he couldn't even handle Linebrink's role as a setup man last season. No idea, as I wasn't sitting in on the negotiations with the Braves. Maybe it's because the Sox have a depleted minor league system and the Braves weren't interested in anybody that Kenny was willing to part with. Maybe Kenny knows things about Josh Anderson that we don't. There could be a number of legitimate reasons. One could easily turn this question around and ask any other major league GM why he didn't trade for Carlos Quentin last winter. Yeah, and he really backed up your assertion by trading away three quality minor league players for Swisher last year, and then trading for Griffey mid-season. That's an incredible vote of confidence in Wise and Owens. Kenny thinks that Wise and Owens are adequate players whose flaws can be overcome by Quentin, Thome, Dye, and Konerko. Because if he actually thinks that Wise and Owens are better options than Josh Anderson, he's a f'n moron. And almost everything that Kenny's done over the past five years suggests that he's pretty freaking smart.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 01:00 PM) Pat Burrell is worth $8M/year over 2 years on the open market. Milton Bradley is worth $9M/year over 2 years with a $12M option for a third on the open market. Dunn is worth an average of $10M/year over 2 years on the open market. So now JD is worth about $5.5M on the open market? Why are you comparing a 35-year-old dinosaur who can't play defense anymore to a bunch of players who are still in the primes of their careers? A comparison of Dye to Abreu would be much more appropriate. I'm not sure why you're comparing these two, either. When you compare the TOTAL sums of their guaranteed contracts, you'll find that Swisher is owed a hell of a lot more. Taking out Viciedo's $4 million signing bonus, he's only owed $6 million over the next four seasons. Given that Swisher came from the steroids-infested A's and that his numbers have dropped substantially over the past three seasons, I'm wondering if Kenny knows/suspects that Swish was taking more than just creatine in Oakland. Dotel has been wildly-inconsistent since he blew out his elbow in Houston. He was also a complete gas can after the ASB last season. Why would a GM want to pay $6 million for a guy like that? Agreed that Linebrink is untradeable. He's publicly stated that he doesn't think that his arm will ever be 100% again. Dotel was brought in as middle reliever. How many middle relievers get $12 million over two years? And his numbers immediately prior to 2007 were not very good, either (1.34 WHIP in 2007, 2.90 WHIP in 2006, and 1.37 WHIP in 2005). Kenny over-paid big-time for Dotel. What you interpret as confidence in Owens and Wise, I interpret as Kenny being financially-handcuffed with massive salaries from several aging vets (Thome, Konerko, Dye, Contreras) and a bad economy that will drive down revenue.

QUOTE (scenario @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 10:22 AM) A few things... The return for Vazquez is proof of dumping payroll?? I think it's more likely that KW figured there was no sense spending $11M this year on a guy whose had an ERA in the high 4's two of the last three years.... that we have young kids who could deliver at that level for much less. Uh, yeah, it is. While people here justifiably rip Javy for his lack of testicular fortitude, the truth is that he's still a very good back-of-the-rotation starter who won the Sox quite a few games over the past three years. The last time I checked, a win in Baltimore on a Tuesday afternoon in May counts as much as a win against the Twins in late September. Javy's salary was pretty much the norm for a good-but-not-great veteran pitcher, in the same neighborhood as Jon Garland and Gil Meche. If money wasn't a factor in this decision, why would Kenny go with a perpetually-injured and washed-up Bartolo Colon or an inferior Clayton Richard? All other things being equal, I'd take Javy over either of those guys in a second. The COMBINATION of minor league talent that was given up for Griffey AND Swisher. Way to cherry-pick there. Griffey was never going to play 1B, RF, LF, or ride the pine as a backup last year. He was thrown into CF almost immediately, and stayed there even after Quentin broke his hand. And don't kid yourself: he was never brought to Chicago as a "backup plan." He didn't hit with power or play even average defense in CF, yet his lack of meaningful contribution still guaranteed him a spot in the lineup. Ozzie had no plans to bench a future HOFer like Griffey for Nick Swisher, and Kenny probably wouldn't have let him if he tried. A "salary dump" means just that: a dumping of salary. There is no qualifier attached for the reason. The rationale can range from trading a player not earning his paycheck (Swisher) to trading a solid starting pitcher and creating a massive hole at the back of your rotation simply because you want to cut payroll (Vazquez).

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 1, 2009 -> 09:48 PM) I don't buy this. Dye would have been gone before the winter meetings if so, Not with $11 million owed to him. That's about twice his current market value. The fact that KW chose a gaping hole in the #5 spot over Vazquez pretty much says it all - he wanted to shed payroll. Hell, look at what he got in return for Vazquez and Swisher. He was obviously dumping salary. I don't think that any GM would want to pick up Dotel or Linebrink's contracts right now. Both are entering the down-sides of their career and Kenny over-paid for both out of desperation last winter. I don't think that Kenny is dumb enough to believe that a career minor-league journeyman like Wise is capable of being a legitimate starting CF. He may be holding out some hope that Owens can raise his OBP enough to lead off, but I don't see him holding his breath. Think about it: If Kenny had such great confidence in these two turds, why did he give up substantial minor-league talent for both Swisher AND Griffey last year? Kenny tried solidifying CF last year by spending on veterans. It didn't work out, so why not go cheap at this position when the economy is forcing you to lower payroll anyway? QUOTE (scenario @ Apr 1, 2009 -> 08:18 PM) FWIW, Willy Taveras' spring stats were almost the exact same as Jerry Owens'... Taveras: .233 BA; .340 OBP; .256 SLG; 3 SB; 2 CS; 1 extra-base hit of any kind all spring (a double) Owens: .230 BA; .342 OBP; .262 SLG; 3 SB; 3 CS; 2 extra-base hits (both doubles) Not that Taveras is all that, but I can't think of anybody who would want Owens (or Wise) over him in CF.

QUOTE (soxfan3530 @ Apr 1, 2009 -> 12:27 PM) The way this leadoff situation went down still leaves me totally flabbergasted that we made no attempt to sign Orlando Hudson. Especially at what he ended up getting. Kenny will never admit it to the public, but they're rebuilding and dumping salary right now. Right or wrong, that's why we don't have Hudson or Taveras.

Ozzie needs to give up on forcing low-OBP-but-potential-base-stealer players into the leadoff role. If you can't get on base, your speed isn't going to be worth crap. Put BA in CF and bat him 9th. At least BA can do SOMETHING really well.