WCSox

QUOTE (T R U @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 11:46 AM) Oh ive read it fine No, you haven't. Let's try again... QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 09:57 AM) I agree that Flowers should be brought up at some point this year, but there's no need to rush a 24-year-old who has been struggling at AAA this year. Let the kid develop. And here was your response... QUOTE (T R U @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 10:06 AM) Ok? So we should just assume Flowers is a bad player and not give him some playing time in a throw away year to see what we have in him.. sounds good. I don't appreciate you cherry-picking sentences from my posts and using them to intentionally mischaracterize my points via rhetorical straw man.

QUOTE (T R U @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 10:06 AM) Ok? So we should just assume Flowers is a bad player and not give him some playing time in a throw away year to see what we have in him.. sounds good. That's not what I said. Try reading a bit closer.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 10:10 AM) If guys like Flowers, Hudson, and Viciedo tank as prospects, there's really not much hope for this team over the next 5-7 years. We have to find some cheap, productive players somehwere. Absolutely. The lack of young hitting talent has been killing this organization for the past year and a half. Quentin and Alexei have both taken steps backwards, and Beckham is experiencing the mother of all sophomore slumps (though I'm still optimistic about him in the long-term). And this is why it's critical that we get decent prospects back if/when we deal PK, MB, Thornton, and Putz.

QUOTE (T R U @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 09:55 AM) He also has 11 HRs and 33 RBI If we need someone to play catcher and hit .200, ide rather it be someone young and cheap who also offers power.. Yeah, he has power in the minors. So did Joe Borchard. I agree that Flowers should be brought up at some point this year, but there's no need to rush a 24-year-old who has been struggling at AAA this year. Let the kid develop.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 08:55 AM) Flowers is also playing better over the last week, and I'm a huge believer that you should give him time in the majors this year in order to see if he can even be in your big league plans next season. Well, sure, but one week isn't indicative of a long-term turnaround. This is a guy who hit a combined .297 at AA and AAA last year. I'd wait for a longer-term improvement (at least a month) before bringing him up.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 08:47 AM) There won't be a draft pick, because we won't offer arbitration. Right. My bad. QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 10, 2010 -> 08:47 AM) We'd save like 4 million dollars, as well as opening up playing time for Flowers. As I mentioned earlier, if we trade him to Texas, it wouldn't shock me though if we throw in money and get a much better prospect (since Texas has all those financial issues). Flowers is currently hitting .228 with a 1/3 BB/K ratio at Charlotte. I'd rather keep him down there until the rosters expand. Has Kenny ever thrown in money to get a better prospect in a trade? I can't remember him ever doing that.

I don't really care if we trade AJ or not. He's not costing an arm and a leg and we're not going to get much in return. The extra draft pick may be similar in value.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 08:30 PM) He is just not a very good hitter anymore so he has regressed to the mean as some like to say on this board. He's a pretty freaking good hitter when he's healthy. Unfortunately, he can't stay healthy for long.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 06:57 PM) Which raises the possibility they're just not good players. Some of them. It's difficult to believe that Peavy isn't a good player, though.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 06:39 PM) That raises the possibility that they're just not good players. Most of them are still in their primes, though. There's no reason why guys like Peavy, Floyd, Quentin, and Alexei should be playing like garbage. And while Beckham experiencing a sophomore slump after an outstanding rookie season is reasonable, hitting below .200 isn't.

QUOTE (chisoxfan09 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 05:39 PM) "We're not talking about tearing something down," Williams said. "If we do something, it will still be along the lines of shuffling the deck with the expectation that we're going to add impact guys that can help us win." There aren't enough face cards left in that deck to win this game. And the house isn't going to continue to spot him the cash for those "impact guys." He's either lying or delusional. While I don't advocate tearing the whole thing down, Kenny needs to understand that you can't slam your foot on the pedal every single season when you have a weak farm system and a limited payroll. Sometimes you need to take a step back before you can move forward.

This season can't end fast enough.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 03:06 PM) He's also 29 years old and frankly is unlikely to keep up this pace for the next 2-3 years, already expensive, and could be a major grab for a contender this year. I absolutely see your point on selling high, as I expect Rios to be in the .790-.830 OPS range for the next few years (he's certainly not going to keep up at his current pace). But if you do that, who do you build around? You need to have at least one above-average hitter in the lineup next year, or you're looking at attendance slipping well below 2 million.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 02:35 PM) Don't get me wrong, it would be a quick return on our investment, but I agree with WC on this...you have to build the offense around someone... As we're painfully aware, CF is also a difficult position to fill. I'd sell Rios for the right price and all, but it'd have to be a deal I couldn't refuse. Rios is signed through the next four years with a TO for 2015, making him the logical piece to build around.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 02:25 PM) The other way to look at that though is...how many $14 million bats can the Sox afford not to move? At least in my world, if you're doing the full firesale, the guys you have to trade are the guys who's value isn't likely to go any higher. If Rios keeps rolling through July, that's a description that I think fits him well. The guys you hold onto are the guys who are underperforming, unless someone overpays you for them. Well, sure, but you need SOMEBODY to build the offense around. If you want to sell Rios, you need to extend PK... and who knows if he even wants to stay (I wouldn't). What are the other options? Beckham? Quentin? Teahen? Similarly, if you sell D1, you need at least one above-average veteran to anchor the rotation. And that would be Peavy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 02:08 PM) If you're going to move Mark, then I think you start looking to move D1 as well. He'll be a FA at the end of 2012 and he'd be an increasingly expensive luxury before then. Of course, I still think you start trying to move Rios too. The Sox can't afford to move good bats... basically because they don't have very many signed through the next few years. They're basically going to have to rebuild around Rios and Beckham (assuming that he pans out). If D1 doesn't agree to a contract extension, I agree that you consider moving him as well. If he goes to FA, the Sox won't win a bidding war over him, nor should they try to.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 01:46 PM) If that happens, then you go from having $12 million available to about $7 million available, depending on exact arb figures for Q and D1, assuming Q is actually offered arbitration. When I look at those sorts of plausible numbers, I really see no option other than this; if we want to compete next year, we either need to strike gold on about 7 guys all signed for $1 million, or we need to move 1-2 of our contracts to both free up salary and grab someone else who can fill those holes. We're not going to be competitive next year unless this team gets ridiculously lucky. My guess is that Kenny tries to move Mark this winter (and he may have difficulty doing so) and basically concedes next year. The "reloading" will have to wait until 2012.

QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Jun 9, 2010 -> 12:07 PM) Even going back as far as 2005, the benefit of having Ozzie Guillen as manager was never his ability to manage a ballgame and be an x's and o's guy. Ozzie's contribution has always been his ability to motivate, deflect negative attention, and keep a clubhouse loose. Well, I'm not seeing much motivation from our players, there's plenty of bad press about this team and Ozzie's antics are no longer putting that bad press on page 2, and, from the looks of it, our team is far from loose. So what exactly is it that Ozzie is providing this team? Well said.

Kenny's not going anywhere any time soon. He's the most effective GM that the Sox have had in a while and most of his teams have been pretty solid on paper. Not that I necessarily think that Ozzie deserves to be fired, but I'm not sure what he brings to the table at this point.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 10:04 PM) I'd actually like to shop Santos around. Santos has been a revelation for us and may end up a top closer for the next 6 years for all we know, but he still is an out-of-options player who needs to continue developing at the Major League level, and if someone came along offering an extremely talented prospect who is close and has option years remaining, especially a position player or SP, I'd make that deal ASAP. If somebody would give up a talented hitting prospect for Santos, I'd make that deal as well. Unfortunately, I don't see anybody GM offering that, given that Santos has only been pitching for about a year and a half now. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. Thankfully, GMs are going to be interested in Thornton, Putz, and possibly Jenks as well. We have the opportunity to load up on some minor-league talent this summer.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 07:40 AM) The problem is it is that exact core that is playing like s*** for the most part. And now the problem is that the talented core of this team is too small to "retool" around. Going into next year, our above-average players are going to be Rios, Danks, Thornton, and I'll go out on a limb and say that Peavy, Mark, and Santos will be solid. There's little evidence that Quentin and Alexei will be any better than average. Beckham and Floyd are question marks. Outside of that, you have a bunch of below-average players and not enough money to fill 1B, C, DH, one SP slot, closer, and setup man with average-to-above-average veterans. I'm sorry that Kenny dumped a ton of money into Peavy and Rios last season, because they're not going to have enough around them to help us win anything for at least two more years.

QUOTE (The Critic @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 07:40 AM) Yeah, I don't think it holds up well at all. Blues Brothers, either, for that matter. QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 12:29 PM) I watched Caddyshack about a year ago. I didn't laugh once. I never thought that the Sox could be this depressing.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 10:38 AM) Even for a catcher, A.J. is not that good of a hitter. His lack of patience makes him a mediocre hitter at best. He's a good contact hitter (this season notwithstanding), but agreed that his plate discipline is terrible.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 07:24 AM) I have difficulty seeing any 34 year old 1b getting a 3 year deal this offseason (he'll be 35 by opening day next year). Depends on the total amount. If the market value is 2/14, offering 3/17 might give him incentive to sign instead of hitting FA. You don't want to get into a bidding war with a guy coming off of the season that PK's currently having. Barring injury, I imagine that PK is safe for roughly an .800 OPS through age 36 (2012). If he falters at 37, you're on the hook for $5.7M in that last year, which isn't terrible. If there's any question about his durability, you can move him to DH.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 09:30 PM) I just mentioned this in another thread, but who knows if the return for Paulie (and Jenks as well) is even Kenny's call? Maybe JR has taken too big of a hit to the wallet and he just wants as much cash gone as possible. If so I'm not sure we'll get a lot for either Paulie or Jenks, and our best players would probably come from Freddy, Jones, and Putz. Could be. JR tends to not go into the red, but the WS may have changed his mind. If Steve Stone is right about PK not being part of the plans for next year, financial motivation seems to make the most sense. Re-inking PK to a 3-year deal at a reduced salary would make sense on a number of levels.