WCSox

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 06:48 AM) Steve Stone was on CSN last night and made it very clear that he believes A.J. will be moved before Monday when he earns his 10/5 rights. He also said that he doesn't think Konerko is part of KW's future plans (not too surprising), so he'll be moved if the team doesn't improve in the near future That's interesting. It's difficult to assess whether that's just an opinion or if it's the organization's official position. Stone has historically shown that he'll speak his mind, but the Sox tend to not give their broadcasters much leeway to say what they actually believe (e.g., Hawk).

QUOTE (joeynach @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:50 PM) Im a fan too, but you cant really let your fans run your team. They dont operate in the same galaxy you do when your a member of the front office. I just read an article in forbes about Philly's recent success. Their success is a product of patience by mgmt, tell the fans and media too bad be quiet for awhile, and excellent production (and spending) from scouting and drafting. If its time for PK and MB to go for the correct direction of this team then thats what needs to happen, I cant worry about Alice from Oak Lawn who on teacher night in 2011 is shocked and saddened to hear that hear favorite player Paulie and her secret crush Buehrle are no longer with the team. Exactly. The casual fan can't even name the startling lineup, much less make comment intelligently on the actions of the front office. And Sox fans aren't going to show up if the team isn't competitive, so that gives the front office even less incentive to care what they think. That said, KHP's comment about appropriate trade value for Mark is a good one. Right now, you're not going to get crap in return for a guy who looks like he's on the down-slope of his career and would be owed roughly $35M when his trade clause kicked in. And then you have to deal with his limited NTC/10/5 rights, which hurt his market significantly. If the Sox did decide to trade Mark, it wouldn't be until this winter at the earliest. And then you have to hope that he really picks it up over the next 3 1/2 months. If he continues to throw like a #3 or #4 into next July, the question then becomes salary relief vs. draft picks.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 08:39 PM) i dont want him gone at all. he is my favorite sox pitcher of all time We're almost to the point where it's not a question of IF we're going to deal Mark, but WHEN.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 03:39 PM) No, not at all. But read through pages 1-3 of this thread. People were villifying Peavy for his comments he made, and then AJ goes and makes more damning comments and no one made any mention of it. I don't think either one of them said anything they should not have. Yes, the posting on Soxtalk tends to go to hell when the Sox are out of contention by June.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 03:38 PM) I'm glad that you're comfortable with a .205 average and a .314 OBP coming from two guys who were supposed to hold down the DH spot. I'm not. Especially, when the majority of the 15 hr's and 34 RBI's that these guys put up are from a guy trending downwards in the exact same fashion as last year. I'm comfortable with Jones' .823 OPS and 10 HRs as a part-time player. As for Kotsay, I'm pretty sure I was clear about his performance. That said, nobody expected top-notch production from the DH spot this year. And I don't see why you and others continue to focus on it with laser beam-like intensity, while completely ignoring the fact that vets like AJ, Alexei, and Quentin are playing like horses*** this year. THAT'S the reason why this team can't score runs. When only three players on your roster with 150 PAs have a 100 OPS+ and Mark Teahen is your fourth-best hitter, singling out the DH is kind of silly, no? Let's say that Kenny out-bid the Tigers for Damon back in March and released Kotsay. Do you think that it would make any significant difference in the standings? (Damon is currently sporting a WAR of 1.0. Kotsay's WAR is -0.5.)

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 03:28 PM) Are you pissed at Peavy for saying he understands if he is traded? No, not really. Is there a reason that I should be pissed at either of these guys?

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 03:10 PM) Right, it's not up to him if he is traded, but he is open to it. Do you think people should be pissed at him for that? I'd be more pissed at him for not wanting to win another ring. And that sure as hell isn't happening in Chicago.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 03:20 PM) I'm not going to let the pitching staff off the hook either. The fact is even if we were pitching as expected, we'd still be the third best team in the division, because The Powers that Be were comfortable settling on guys like Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones to sink or swim with this team. Jones has been far from awful and Kotsay, although terrible, is a part-time player. If you want to point fingers, you're pointing them at the wrong players.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 03:04 PM) I look at this pitching staff and I expected them to pitch very closely to the 2005 staff. I looked at this offense and thought they would be better offensively than the 2005 lineup card. I just honestly believed we had enough offensively, and any shortcomings would be addressed in-season. Look at it this way, at least we didn't trade away a bunch of pieces for some bat that would have been irrelevant because we are pitching so poorly. The key reason for all of this is that Ozzie wanted to try to win with this offense. That is the reason Kenny and Jerry let us go into the offseason this way. I thought that they'd be roughly the same as the '05 lineup, but pretty much agree with the rest of this. I'm pretty sure that Kenny is happy that he didn't spend $8M on Damon to "put us over the top."

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 02:56 PM) So Pierzynski said he is open to a trade. So do you guys hate him now or think he's an asshole? He doesn't have 10/5 rights yet, so it doesn't really matter if he's "open" to a trade or not.

QUOTE (scenario @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 02:36 PM) I understand what you're saying. The pitching has been a disappointment... yes. That was not expected. But I just don't understand why we chose to accept offensive mediocrity (at best) in the first place. We have THE lowest team batting average in the American League. We're near the bottom in OBP. We're 9th in SLG. All despite the fact that everyone is healthy. The sad part is that this (to me) is not a surprise... which is what I find so frustrating about the design of this years team. You shouldn't spend $100M and expect to have a mediocre (at best) offensive team. That's just not acceptable IMO. There's no reason why we shouldn't have brought back Thome. That said, there weren't a lot of other good offensive players out there that would play for Thome's current salary. It's not like we weren't looking (Damon). There were too many payroll obligations on the books going into this past winter and not enough revenue coming into the organization to spend significantly more. Kenny was forced to go cheap (although one can certainly question how he spent). He got lucky with Jones and not-so-lucky with others.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 12:09 PM) In regards to part 1, are you serious? He's been a terrible offensive player since May 1st. A hot April doesn't=significant offensive force. I can't even believe I'm having this argument about a guy that really has been a bad offensive player since 2006 ended. As for Teahen, he's a 3rd basemen with no power and poor defense. To me, that's a problem, especially considering he's a career .331 OBP guy (with a whopping .340 in that category this year) and that's his best quality. He is making mind numbingly ridiculous arguments, but if you want to attach to them as well, be my guest. To somehow defend Mark Teahen, Juan Pierre, and Andruw Jones performances right now as some sort of help is obnoxious. They've been mediocre, just like any reasonable person would expect. To say "people were wrong" to think they'd kill this teams offensive production is simply wrong. Dude, take your retarded anger-fest somewhere else.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:45 AM) Andruw Jones is hitting .216 and has an OPS inflated by a red hot start, similarly to what he did last year. He's 16 for 85 since May started with an on base under .300 and a slugging percentage under .400. That is about as blatant an example of using stats to spin an argument as I've seen in a LONG time. Dude, knock it off. Jones has been a significant offensive force for this team, and has been a stud for pretty much his entire career (when healthy). Jones' OPS and walk-off homers carry a lot more weight than your heavily biased opinion. Never advocated extending Teahen, but his bat isn't nearly as bad as the mouth-foamers on this board suggest. The worst that you can say about him is that he lacks power for a 3B. If you want to play that game, Jones makes up for that as a part-time player.

QUOTE (Buehrlesque @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:28 AM) We said the same thing in 2007. While underachieving, this '10 team is more talented than the hapless 2007 team, and the '08 team, while not great, won the division. I absolutely think the Sox can win the division in 2011 with a couple strong trades and FA signings*. You know KW wouldn't settle for anything less anyway. (*Shedding Konerko, Pierzynski and Jenks would net the team more than $20 million to work with, although KW's M.O. is to make a trade not sign a FA.) The middle of the 2007 lineup was still productive and signed through the next two seasons. This year, 2 of our (only) 3 players with an OPS+ of 100 are going to be FAs this winter, and Kenny hasn't shown an interest in extending either of them. This team was also had higher revenue and more disposable income in '07 than they do now. That extra $20 million isn't going to fund replacements for PK, Jones, AJ, Jenks, and Putz. There are too many holes to fill and JR has already stated that the organization will pull back financially if they don't draw (compete) this year. QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:31 AM) It's not that Teahen and Pierre restrict the team's payroll where we can't afford new players, it's that they are paid well enough where I think KW will give them starting spots (assuming we can't dump their contracts). This directly affects where we could spend any savings to improve our lineup. Well, of course they're going to get starting spots, as that was the entire point of bringing them in. But they're not the problem. Our farm system that isn't producing ML-ready position players is.

QUOTE (longshot7 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:05 AM) I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Caruso was the gem of the package, Foulke & Howry the closest to major league ready, and Barcelo just had high hopes. He wasn't a throw-in, but he wasn't thought of the way Caruso was. Caruso was a freaking 20-year-old, slap-hitting A-baller when the Sox traded for him. His minor-league BA and OBP were decent, but nothing special. Calling somebody with that skill set a "gem" makes little sense, and the only reason that he started for the Sox in '98 was their lack of other options. He was also a part of a trade that involved five other players, many with MUCH higher ceilings.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 10:55 AM) I think we have a shot at retooling and competing next year if we keep the rotation intact. Obviously there would have to be significant changes to the offense and a lot of rebound years (pitching and offense), but I think it's a possibility. I'd like to believe this, but I just don't see it. With payroll constricting and nobody in the minors ready yet, they're not going to be able to add enough via free agency to make this team significantly better next year. Unless we see 2008 CQ and Alexei and 2009 Beckham, it's difficult to see this team doing anything significant next season. Pierre and Teahen cost about $10M/year combined. They're not constricting payroll. Attendance, parking, and concession revenue, plus the other large contracts on the roster, are the problem.

QUOTE (hogan873 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 10:22 AM) Yeah, I think Peavy is untradeable, especially considering KW would want something nice in return. His contract and performance make it almost certain he's on the 2011 staff. Agreed. If you deal Peavy, you're rebuilding, which means that you have to get AT LEAST one good ML-ready prospect for him. I don't think that anybody would be willing to give that up now.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 10:14 AM) I hope I'm wrong, but it's hard to see Jake Peavy being as dominant here as he was in the NL. Maybe the Cardinals (or the Phillies) take him off our hands... Small sample size, but he was last September.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 10:10 AM) Then you'll be forced to find starting pitching via trade or free agency. I would not want to go into the offseason with two holes in our rotation and no legitimate internal candidates to replace them (assuming Hudson replaces Freddy). We'll end up overpaying with our limited resources (money and talent) as we'll be in a position of need. I kind of agree with you, but there's also little point in paying both Peavy and Buehrle when you're selling off the rest of the team and aren't going to compete next year anyway. You'll likely get multiple ML-ready prospects by trading those two, in addition to a ton of salary relief. That's a nice way to rebuild a franchise. That said, it's a moot point because nobody's going to take on Peavy's contract right now.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 09:59 AM) I'll probably get flamed for this, but if someone offered up a couple of nice prospects for Mike Caruso ERRRR... Gordon Beckham, I hope KW pulls the trigger. Seriously. He could end up being like Mike Caruso for real. Remember how popular Brandon Mc Carthy was? Didn't he land us John Danks and Nick Masset? That trade was unpopular at the time, but I think KW won in the end. Maybe it'll be a similar scenario. Beckham has raked at all levels and the Sox invested a first-round signing bonus in him. To my knowledge, Caruso was never as highly touted as Beckham. He was not even the prized piece of the White Flag package (Barcelo was). Beckham's development at the ML level hasn't been that much different than Robin Ventura's so far, so I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 09:50 AM) To be clear, I am not among the crowd that labels Ozzie or Walker as stupid, or anything of the like. They both are obviously smart guys, and they know baseball, and I don't doubt that they work their asses off. But they simply haven't been effective, from what evidence I can see. Agreed. Historically (going back to his days coaching the Marlins), Ozzie's strength appears to have been motivation. That's clearly nonexistent in his current clubhouse.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 08:33 AM) The difference between MB and PK is...you're asking a team to give up an awful lot more for MB, because he's signed for longer, and you're asking another team to pay based on performance he hasn't replicated this season. I was hoping that, if Kenny decides to blow up the team, he'd deal Mark this year. Clearly, we're not going to compete through the remainder of his contract, and I'm also getting the feeling that he's on the down-slope of his career. But I agree that Kenny might want to hold off and hope that Mark bounces back later this year. He won't get much for him right now. QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 08:52 AM) I hope that Ozzie is shown the door before Opening Day 2011, as well as the advance scouting and hitting coaching staffs. I just don't have confidence anymore that they can do what is needed with any new players brought in. I've always thought that Ozzie and Walker are competent at what they do, but are average at best. Therefore, I won't be unhappy if Kenny brings a new staff in this winter.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 08:41 AM) The problem is that when you have starters with limited potential or who just aren't that good like we do, you limit the scope of how good the offense can be because it requires that everyone have a normal or better than normal season. Instead of 9 guys that can contribute a positive season and who can make up for guys who are having off years, we only have 6 or 7. Thus, when one of the guys we count on to be positive offensive players sucks, there is not enough good hitters to pick up the slack. The Sox had JD, Thome, PK, Quentin, and (later) Rios occupying 5/9 of the lineup last year and they managed to score a whopping 724 runs. Historically, the problem hasn't been the Sox having too many hitters with "limited potential" or "who just aren't that good." The problem has been a lack of production from veterans who are getting paid to hit at the .800 OPS+ level. I have no idea why Kotsay has 135 PA and agree that he hinders our ability to score runs. But if you're going to call him out, you need to call out AJ and Alexei as well. Again, it's not just the players who are bad on paper. As for Teahen, he was sporting a .340 OBP and 94 OPS+ before his injury. His defense is mediocre at best, but the notion that he's been a massive drag on the lineup this year is wrong.

I was hoping that they'd re-sign PK to a three-year extension at a reduced salary. If they're willing to deal him, I imagine that Mark might be on the trading block as well.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:06 PM) Where's the love for Jenks? He looks awfully good to me. Some people just want to hate and not give him his props like the last 2 outings? Very small sample size, but his last two performances have been encouraging. If he continues on this path, he may net us something at the deadline. Also agreed with the previous post about Putz, although I'd rather trade him. I'm not confident in his ability to stay healthy.