WCSox

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 12:50 AM) AJ yes (if you check the threads from late March/early April, I said he was going to have a surprisingly poor year), Alexei yes (he always starts like crap, his OPS will be near career average by years end), Pierre yes (he really isn't the player he once was anymore, despite the good season he had last year in the perfect situation for himself) and Quentin yes (I thought after last year that 2008 was a fluke, and see no reason to back off that now). Underperformance is hard to predict, and I'd be more than willing to admit I might have got lucky with such predictions in this case. But at the end of the day, this offense is overall pretty close to what most people thought it would be. "Most people" predicted that Andruw Jones, Mark Teahen, and Juan Pierre would kill this team's offensive production. They were wrong. Instead, Teahen has a respectable .340 OBP and Jones is sporting a remarkable .823 OPS, with solid defense to boot. After a slow start, Pierre is inching back towards his typical .280 BA/.330 OBP and already has 22 stolen bases. On the other hand, nobody predicted that Quentin, Beckham, and AJ would all be hitting around the Mendoza Line after two months.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:54 AM) Mark is one of those guys that I would only deal for a high level, MLB-ready guy and then a few lower level pieces to go with. This year, I agree. But the situation gets more complex next year. If Kenny "goes for it" and we end up in the same place that we're in this year, you have to weigh getting less than what you've outlined above vs. draft picks and a lack of salary relief.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:27 AM) Mark Buehrle is the person we need to be trying to trade. Said it before the season, and I'll say it now. There's a ton of miles on that left shoulder of his. I'd be willing for the Sox to include some money when trading him if it meant getting some top prospects. If Kenny going into rebuilding mode, I agree. If not, I'm not comfortable with Floyd, Hudson, and an unknown making up 60% of the rotation.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:28 AM) This is exactly my question though....are you telling me every roster we bring in doesn't care? What Steff essentially said back in '06 or '07 was that this team was "satisfied" with their rings and lacked the hunger to win again. I don't know how accurate that information is, but my understanding is that she knew some people in or close to the organization at the time, so I took her opinion as more than speculation. How that would translate into '08-'10 would likely be via a clubhouse culture of lethargy and a satisfaction of playing well enough to continue collecting a paycheck. This is pure speculation on my part, but it's difficult to interpret the way that this team folded last year as anything else. Now, that doesn't mean that every player on the roster lacks the drive to put in 110% every day, but enough of them do that it affects everybody. And this is no different from any work place where a bad atmosphere negatively affects productivity.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 09:26 PM) Good for him. Trade him. He hasn't done squat for the White Sox this season. Given how he's pitched this year, I imagine that very few GMs would be willing to take on Peavy's contract. We're going to be stuck with him for at least another year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:54 AM) I think you just, whether you like it or not, sorta admitted that I'm right; this is just how teams look once things go bad. They start looking lazy. Tired. Like they don't care. Steff made this comment about three or four years ago. And history has pretty much corroborated it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 08:49 AM) Which is exactly why another team would be scared to part with a huge package to get him. Yeah, I agree that no team is going to give up much for Santos. Dude wasn't even a pitcher until last season, and has no options left. If we're going to trade bullpen talent, Putz and Jenks (assuming that he improves) are at the top of the list. And if Kenny decides to take a step back and really shake things up next year, Thornton would nab a solid prospect.

QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 06:34 AM) Yesterday I sat out there. Really sad crowd for Saturday fireworks. 30K. Considering how badly they're playing and how much tickets cost now, that's not that bad.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 12:25 PM) Since 2004 the White Sox team ERA AL rankings I started with 2004 because that was Greg Walker's first full year and he gets crap daily. When Walker took over in 2003 the team led the league in hitting the remainder of the season: 2004 11th 2005 1st 2006 10th 2007 12th 2008 6th 2009 2nd 2010 13th You will use the argument they play in a bandbox, but most Sox pitchers do better at home than on the road. White Sox team OPS rankings: 2004 4th 2005 8th 2006 3rd 2007 12th 2008 4th 2009 11th 2010 10th That's nice, but your argument assumes that both coaches have had the same level of talent to work with. I don't necessarily believe that's the case. I believe the difference is Cooper's success in developing young pitchers and turning below-average veteran arms into above-average veteran arms. Walker has inherited some really good hitters (and has certainly helped some, such as Rios), but lacks Coop's track record of turning a heaping pile of crap into a viable major-league player. Walker's had some limited success with Quentin and Beckham, but nothing near what Cooper's had. That said, one could also argue that Walker didn't have a talented rookie young hitter work with until Beckham last year. So, again, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison. Then again, I'm not blaming the Sox's lack of offense on Walker, so that straw man doesn't apply to me.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 11:32 AM) There's no anger at all from my end. I would give El Duque the credit for Contreras more than Cooper. Contreras was so thrilled when the Colorado pitching coach made some adjustments and he was throwing 95 again. Jose actually has better numbers than Sergio Santos so far this season. Floyd has been wildly inconsistent. His ERA was nearly what it is right now a year ago, then he went on a tear, then he sucked again. He also was a top 5 pick in the draft, and I do agree you still have to develop them, but its not like his talent came out of nowhere. Cooper's transformation of Thornton should keep him on the Thornton family Christmas card and bonus list for the rest of his life. To give Cooper credit for Freddy is laughable, but if you must then you have to say Peavy and Floyd and Buehrle in 2010 is his fault. (I don't think it is BTW) I'm not saying Cooper is a bad pitching coach or even mediocre. I just don't think he walks on water like some believe. I never claimed that. But, despite your straw man arguments and silly downplaying of his achievements, Cooper's results are clearly there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 09:30 AM) I think his record is a little overblown. I don't think he should be fired, but I think getting hammered and talking on the radio hasn't hurt him. He has been great for Matt Thornton, but other than Thornton and maybe Jenks, and I don't know how much of Jenks' success you could pin on Cooper, most of his success stories have been relatively short-lived. Danks and Floyd were top prospects for other organizations, and Floyd is either Cy Young or garbage depending on the start. Floyd went from terrible in Philly to an ERA+ of 119 and 115 in his last two seasons. That's a pretty significant turn-around. Contreras went from being the guy who crumbled under pressure in the spotlight to a dominant post-season pitcher under Coop (and an All-Star the following year). He also turned a post-shoulder-surgery junkball-throwing Freddy into a legit #4/#5 starter. I'm not going to put Coop on the same level as Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone. But your characterization of him seems more driven by anger than logical analysis.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 09:13 AM) How is Cooper the obvious exception? His charges have underperformed more than anyone. I won't insult your intelligence by bringing up Cooper's track record with young pitchers and reclamation projects.

QUOTE (pktmotion @ Jun 4, 2010 -> 11:28 PM) I was agreeing with you. I was just presenting the first argument people run into when blaming players instead of coaches. To some degree it holds weight, but it boils down to this. People love simple answers. Half of the team is underperforming, half of the team won't get traded away because that's not a smart business decision. It's a complex problem, so an easy solution is to blame the manager. But to some degree it's the right system. Guillen represents his players. If his players aren't getting it done, fair or not, Guillen takes the heat. He told KW this team was alright as it is. He was comfortable giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those AB's. And the whole rotating DH. Whether or not Ozzie, KW, or the players are held accountable is another question, but I'll say it again apathy is contagious. And sometimes it's confused for loyalty. There's a ridiculous amount of misplaced anger on this board. When Peavy, Floyd, Jenks, AJ, and Alexei all play like crap, it's Teahen, Pierre, Ozzie, and Kenny's fault. That said, I agree that Ozzie and most of the coaching staff probably need to go. And it's not because they're incompetent (Ozzie's lineups notwithstanding). It's a combination of the fact that (1) the players aren't listening to them anymore and (2) they're not bringing much to the table anyway (Coop is the obvious exception). Ozzie does not manage/motivate players like Tony LaRussa. Walker doesn't develop hitters like Charlie Manuel. I'm not a fly on the wall in the Sox clubhouse, but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the culture isn't about winning right now. With the way that these guys sleepwalked through last August and September, it's difficult to imagine that there's a sense of urgency to win. These guys are just showing up to collect a paycheck. And I agree that the easiest way to change that culture is to bring in a new coaching staff. It also means cutting the dead weight: veterans that aren't performing anymore. We saw it last year with JD and we'll see it again this year with AJ and Jenks, for starters. BTW, Ozzie is not "giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those ABs" because those are the players that Ozzie wants. Those are the players that Kenny could afford this year whose skills happen to reflect the type of player that Ozzie likes. Otherwise, he'd be giving those at-bats to Damon or Matsui.

QUOTE (pktmotion @ Jun 4, 2010 -> 09:55 PM) You can't fire 25 players. Managers are either hated or overrated, the players make them look good. But apathy is pretty contagious. That doesn't change the fact that the players have failed the organization, not the other way around.

It's interesting how managers, coaches, and front office folk are always at fault, but veterans who don't perform at a level anywhere near their career numbers escape blame.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 4, 2010 -> 01:11 PM) I agree and disagree with this post. One thing that was predictable was that this offense was not going to be worth much of anything. We're 10th in the AL in runs and on pace to score around 700 runs, which I think is about what most people expected. We've had masterful performance (to the point of overachieving) by Konerko and Rios, and I think the only truly shocking underperformance so far offensively has been Gordon Beckham (although maybe I was in the minority expecting AJ to suck this year.) You actually expected four veterans to hit THIS far below their career numbers? AJ - .604 OPS (career average .748) Alexei - .651 OPS (career average .740) Pierre - .589 OPS (career average .715) Quentin - .723 OPS (career average .827)

Of players with at least 25 plate appearances, Teahen is 4th on the team in OPS.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2010 -> 09:14 AM) You don't think he wanted Pierre? You don't think he is the VERY REASON Omar is here? You don't think he is the reason Kotsay is here? Despite what many seem to believe, this is Ozzie's team, no matter how badly some want to put the blame on Kenny. Certainly KW should not escape blame either, but the character of this roster was changed to appease Ozzie Guillen. Needless to say, this point is moot, as it has been the SP, at least IMHO, that has really cost us a chance at getting back in this thing. That likely applies to Thome. But the preponderance of slap-hitting retreads on the wrong side of 30 is due to budgetary constraints more than anything else.

Given how he's struggling at AAA this season, he may not be called up until the rosters expand.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 3, 2010 -> 04:49 PM) And both scenarios existed because upper management did nothing to address a glaring need. It's kind of f***ed up how Kenny Williams can sit there with his thumb up his ass all offseason and then the fans end up getting mad at the players, who normally would be very good in their proper roles. I think most of us end up doing it too. I b****ed about Wise all the time and then I still defend Kenny. But f*** Kenny. Upper management had a ton of money committed to veterans going into this season, with ownership screaming to put the brakes on spending. This is why we ended up with Jones/Kotsay instead of Damon or Matsui. If veterans like Peavy, Floyd, Jenks, Quentin, Pierre, Alexei, and AJ had played at even an average level this season, we wouldn't be whining about below-average players playing at a below-average level. Hell, even if Kenny had spent on Damon or Matsui, this team still wouldn't win crap with Teahen having the fourth-highest OPS+ among regular and semi-regular players.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 3, 2010 -> 03:12 PM) I'll admit, Ivan Bubbling Calderon was my favorite player back then. His gold chains were awesome. Too bad about his death a few years ago.

QUOTE (soxfan-kwman @ Jun 3, 2010 -> 09:57 AM) I think Beckham should go back to third, or move to SS. Ramirez should go back to 2B. I'm not saying forever, but we need something to shake things up. Put Nix at Short for a week, it's not like we could play worse. In '08 Ozzie moved lineups around & it seemed to help. Maybe put Visquel at 2B to for a week & leave Ramirez at SS, something to shake it up. Back to Beckham, he's doing better, but at third he helps by gaining momentum at times by making a good play. As oppose to Teahen (who seemed to be hurting for awhile) losing momentum or giving another team momentum. Making good plays at third like Joe Crede used to do can help a team a lot and I think Beckham can do that. Given that Beckham has been struggling like hell at the plate for the past month and a half, the last thing you want to do is complicate his situation by making him re-learn a position that he's played for less than a year. That would be completely counter-productive. I'm also pretty sure that Beckham is capable of making good plays at 2nd base.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 3, 2010 -> 11:36 AM) I think his main point is simply that you have to suffer through the bad times to really appreciate the great times. Pretty much. I lived through the late '80s, and that was a lot worse than the past 3 1/2 years have been. If the Sox have to go through another stretch like that to be competitive again, so be it. I'll still be here.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 2, 2010 -> 11:06 PM) Putz is not a superior option. Maybe Santos if we want to let the inexperienced guy get his feet wet in the closer role. This love of Putz confuses me. Putz was a successful closer for a couple of years. Santos has only been pitching for a year and a half, and his arm isn't conditioned for the closer role yet. Mishandling Santos in what is likely a lost season would be a major screw-up on the Sox's part. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 3, 2010 -> 06:15 AM) If Jenks is his closer, that is what he was to say publicly. Also if they are hoping to dump Jenks soon, they have to keep him in as closer if they want him to have max value.l They could move Putz to the closer role and try to sell him instead. His contract is a lot more reasonable and might attract more suitors.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 3, 2010 -> 10:39 AM) Yeah, I think certainly could play into it. But Mark isn't going to try and screw over the only franchise he has ever known, either. I don't think he would ever push for Kenny to accept a less-than-fair deal so that he could be dealt to St. Louis. I agree, and it's not like Kenny's going to accept less than what he believes is reasonable. He'll hold onto Mark and take the draft picks instead. But given that Mark's been one of the two faces of this franchise for the past 5+ years, Kenny's also going to feel pressured to make Mark's parting with Chicago a happy and PR-friendly one. Sending Mark to his favorite team, near his hometown, would be the ultimate goodwill gesture.