WCSox

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 03:26 PM) I dont get the whole thing where you're ready to shell out $6M with deferments for LH power...and then turn around later and say "no we didnt have a hole to fill." And they'll basically say that if they stand pat. Damon cost Detroit $8M without the benefit of a bidding war with the Sox to escalate the price even further. If the Sox had played Boras' game, I imagine that Damon would've cost somewhere in the $9-10M range. I have no idea where this is going. I'd like to say Blalock (who isn't all that great, but still better than Jones). But if KW passed on Thome and Branyan, it looks like the next move will be mid-season.

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 03:37 PM) Blalock would be a terrible fit. Care to elaborate?

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 03:34 PM) You know what? I'd go to JD and say "Look. I'll give you $3M to DH, since you can't play the field. Take it or leave it." Then, let him and Jones it out, and if they both suck, cut Jones, if they both hit, trade one midseason for prospects. If Jones hits and JD doesn't, DFA JD and trade for Crawford, and if JD hits and Jones doesn't...don't do anything. We know how competition for roster That's not a bad option, but that bridge may likely be burned.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 03:19 PM) Not worse than last year? We've replaced the power numbers from Dye and Thome with Jones and Teahan. Actually, we've replaced Dye with Pierre and Fields/Nix/Getz with Teahen. The drop-off from Thome to Jones is significant, but that's the major drop-off. If Rios is halfway decent and Quentin is healthy, this offense will be at least a little better. QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 03:13 PM) @ $8M for one year, Tigers overpaid. Let them have him at that price. Agreed. That said, Thome and Branyan have already signed for cheap. If Kenny overlooks Blalock as well, he'dd better have something big in store down the road.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 02:42 PM) Blalock is a Boras client. It would be interesting to see if the two parties could work together after the failed Damon Negotiations. Kenny did mention that he and Boras had some good discussions which might lead to inroads in the future. I see the Crawford idea, but I think it would be pretty difficult to trade Crawford midseason considering Friedman thinks this team is their best in team history. All true. I also imagine that Boras is also not happy with Kenny costing both him and Damon money with yesterday's announcement. But business is business, and two guys who don't like each other will still work together when it comes down to it. It'll be interesting to see how all of this shakes out.

QUOTE (jphat007 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 02:09 PM) I haven't felt this bad about the team in 10+ yeras. I don't even know that it is rational. Maybe it's just because I feel like this is the Twins best team in awhile. I just don't have a good feeling. I felt a lot worse about this team in 2001-2002, when our rotation was garbage, our catchers were awful, CF was a mess, Frank got hurt, Borchard was on the roster, etc. This team is infinitely better.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 01:49 PM) How is it you know the budget? Do you work for the Sox? I'm pretty sure that I never claimed that I'm privy to that information. Sure, and there are also salaries coming off the books next year, and more the year after that. Would they be the first organization to go into the red for a year or two? And why are you taking JR and Brooks Boyer's comments at face value? What incentive do they have to tell you the truth? Maybe they have another $10M+ sitting around for an "impact bat" and maybe they don't. It seems to me that it's probably a better idea for them to say what they did rather than, "Sorry, guys, we're out of money. Don't expect anything exciting this year." I have no idea how much disposable income the Sox currently have, but I believe that if they really had a shot at a stud bat, they'd find a way to make it work. So, in that sense, I sort of believe JR and Boyer. That's pretty much what I've been saying, though I think that they're going to be more picky this year (as current events have suggested). Agreed that Gonzalez is a pipe dream, due to the reasons that you outlined. I think it's more likely that they sign somebody like Blalock and go after Crawford in June if they're in contention. Then again, I still can't figure out why they let Thome and Branyan (who cost nothing) slip by. They're obviously looking. At the very least, it seems to me that the "impact bat" that JR and Boyer speak of is somebody more impactful than Damon.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 12:38 PM) That says a lot more about Dye than it does about Pierre. I won't argue with that. Pierre is OK, but far from an All Star.

QUOTE (chunk23 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 12:02 PM) Besides his terrible 2nd half last year, Dye was certainly one of the better Sox hitters. And who is this average position player he's being replaced with? Rios might be an upgrade, but who knows if he'll bounce back? Dye had a nice 2008, but was hurt throughout a good chunk of 2007 and was equally-worthless at times. I expect that somebody like Rios (who is not a slugger or a high OBP guy) is going to put up about a .790-.820 OPS this year, which is at least equal to and probably better than what JD would've done at his age. I may get blasted for this, but I actually believe that Pierre's overall skill set (speed, base-stealing, contact-hitting, defense) will make him an overall upgrade to what a declining Dye would've contributed as a DH this year (and at almost 1/3 of the price).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 12:00 PM) Branyan signed a 1 year deal with the Indians. I take it this was very recently? I checked MLB's player page before posting that and he was still listed as a FA.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 11:28 AM) Oh, I can agree with that. My point was that the money IS there. And they WERE willing to spend it on Damon. But only to what the market dictates, not what Scott Boras dictates. If the "true" market value for Damon is $6M and Boras was going to pump it up to at least $7M via a bidding war with DET, then I agree. Also agree on "the money is there" point. Yeah, they can reach back and go into short-term debt if they want (or borrow it from a bank). But after four years of high spending and inconsistent and mostly-disappointing results, I don't fault them at all for having tighter fists this year. If I'm Kenny and I'm going to put my job on the line, it's not going to be for somebody like AGon, not Damon.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 11:25 AM) This was never my position. DH was the ideal position to fill via free agency because of the depressed salaries it was commanding. As far as criticizing an executive for, imo, making a really shortsighted commitment that will cost them games, sorry. I guess I should just result to insulting posters and trying to convince everyone that putting two horrible baseball players at a position, and relying on a great rotation to overcome what is likely to be one of the worst offenses in the AL, are REALLY great ideas. Because...we're on a budget If you feel that I've insulted you, that post of sarcastic pseudo-art has more than evened the score. It's time to drop it. I don't believe that this offense is going to be as bad as you do. The Sox were one of the worst offenses in the AL in two of the past three years, and it wasn't because they lacked the raw talent. An average MLB position player is an improvement over much of Dye's past three seasons. A healthy Quentin is obviously a big step up over the last year and a half or so of injured Quentin. Rios is a massive upgrade over Wise/Pods. Beckham isn't going to get worse after seeing 2/3 of a season's worth of AL pitching. They're not going to kick ass or anything, but they should be good enough to win a "meh" division when combined with an excellent pitching staff and much better-than-recent defense. I still think that Kenny is going to land a FA DH (the fact that he seriously negotiated for Damon shows that he's actively looking). It's not going to be a big-money guy like Damon or Matsui. It'll probably end up being somebody like Blalock or Branyan. Not great, but more reliable than Jones. If Kenny DOESN'T land a relatively inexpensive guy like that, then the oft-made criticism of him not re-signing Thome on the cheap will be validated.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 11:19 AM) ? You lost me there. Sorry, I didn't connect those two ideas very well. (1) Damon is not an "impact player" in my opinion, but he's relatively close. (2) Damon likely would've cost the Sox at least $7M if Kenny didn't pull out his bid, announce the value of his offer, and thus undermine Boras' ability to drive up the price via a bidding war.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 11:10 AM) Well I doubt he meant $3 million. Both JR and Boyer have stated the money is available to acquire an impact player. That would seem to imply that is a reasonable amount. Apparently they don't consider Damon to be an "impact player." He's close, but they would've spent $7M+ had they been forced to out-bid DET. They're either going to go with a cheap, one-year deal on a guy like Blalock or will go after somebody like Crawford in June/July.

QUOTE (chunk23 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 11:09 AM) KW rarely goes after FAs. You mean like Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui? No, it's more like "stop complaining about the lack of spending on a $6M+ FA DH when the payroll is already teetering on $100M, you have arguably the best rotation in the AL, a solid bullpen, improved defense, and your GM committed over $100M to two players via trades just 6 months ago."

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 10:41 AM) I see both of your points. If you're going to spend $100 million, you may as well attempt to win. If it takes $110 million to win, it's probably wise to scratch and claw and do everything possible to obtain the additional $10 million than to waste the $100 million to come up short. It may not be so easy for KW to convince JR and the rest of the board to increase the budget by 10% in a bad economy and with slowly-waning attendance. Especially after he convinced them to dole out over $100M on two players last year and the team bombed in response.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 10:23 AM) I don't think the point could've gone further over your head. So let me be blunt: I know we are on a budget. I'm not asking that we don't work on a budget. I'm asking that we spend our resources more wisely, so that we can fill a position that is typically cheap, while still offensively productive. The analogy, of course, is saying that you are looking at the very end point, and crying budget. And refusing criticism because you are only looking at this point. I don't like the position we are in, and I'm complaining about the position and how we got here. Yes, I understand your silly analogy. Ironically, we "got here" by following your own strategy of "spend as much as needed on free agents, so there aren't any holes in the lineup." That strategy isn't sustainable. When over-priced dinosaurs like Thome and Dye decline to the point of uselessness, there's going to be a transition period. I thought that would be obvious to you, but apparently not. And that transition has been softened by the acquisitions of Rios and Pierre (the latter of which is probably an overall performance improvement over Dye at this point in their respective careers). But apparently that and Jake Freaking Peavy aren't enough for you. Gimme, gimme, gimme! And, yeah, no kidding that the farm system hasn't produced a lineup of Gordon Beckhams over the past five years. Instead, the organization has spent more than they've wanted to and have put guys like Thome, Swisher, and Rios into the lineup to offset that. Yeah, it sucks that the Sox were only able to home-grow a few outstanding pitchers and not an entire 25-man roster of All-Stars. But that's reality. And for some reason, you insist on incessantly whining about how the team got here when that ship sailed years ago and there isn't a thing that anybody can do about it right now. Freaking get over it. You sound like a 10-year-old who is still complaining about not seeing a Wii under the Christmas tree back in December.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 09:49 AM) No, again, I'm not, so you need to get over it. If I went to the store to shop for a big birthday party and had $100. And then spent $60 on some real nice ingredients for a great cake. s*** is gonna be a Texas Red velvet cake, will be comparable to any cake any one else could make that day and birthdays are MADE on that cake, and then spent 15 dollars on some nice potato chips, some on some candles, some tomatoes, buns, mustard... and then all the sudden realize I only have $2 left for the hamburger meat! s***! You don't say, "wellp, I was working on a budget, NBD" and have it be a legitimate excuse. And it turns out, a 10 lb package of ground chuck was on sale for $5. But hey, you were working on a budget, nothin you can do. Hey, sorry Insurance company, I'm workin on a budget and I spent the $30 on body shots last night, but it's okay man, I'm on a budget, you don't understand, you're operating in a video game mr. insurance man, if my budget was 500 and i spent it on other things, you have no right to claim that I owe you that money, mr. fantasyland. For future reference, stooping to Jon Stewart's level doesn't help your argument. The vast majority of teams have a couple of holes in their lineup, and the Sox are no different. A lot of fans would love to have Floyd/Danks as their #3/#4 startes, Thornton as their setup man, and somebody as talented as Rios in CF... even if that means Teahen at 3B and a question mark at DH. Then again, most of those teams don't have a ridiculously-good starting rotation. Very few teams can round out their lineup with high-priced players like Damon and Matsui. If you can't handle the fact that the Sox can't buy their way into the playoffs every year via free agency, maybe you need to become a Yankees fan or something.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 07:03 AM) You would think so, but that wouldn't explain putting two vomit level players at DH when your offense is already below average. Again, you're ignoring the basic concept of operating within a budget.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 07:20 PM) And a big problem here is that we have not been able to develop league average players to plug into positions so you aren't paying big major league deals at so many offensive positions when you are on a budget. Only beckham and Quentin qualify as such. Danks, Floyd, and Thornton say hi. Jenks was relatively cheap for a while, and Hudson will likely be rounding out the rotation next year. Developing young pitching frees up funds to sign veteran talent when guys like Getz, Nix, and Fields don't pan out. I agree that the Sox haven't developed enough strong position player talent from within, but their development of young/cheap pitching has been pretty impressive and it's helped the team financially. QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 08:26 PM) And you know what, I don't give a damn about having the pitching staff that we do if it doesn't make the playoffs. This pitching staff alone may carry this team to the playoffs. An attempt to re-create the mid-'90s Indians offense at the expense of pitching will almost ensure that this team falls short. Frankly, I don't care about simply "making the playoffs" anymore. If this team doesn't actually win a post-season series, they've disappointed me. The '08 team was absolutely loaded with talent from top to bottom, but played to the level of the 4th or 5th best team in the AL. I'm tired of that crap.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 05:33 PM) Well considering that the twins will have a mid 90 million dollar payroll. The strategy has changed. Right, I forgot about the new stadium. Don't know how long it'll take for the honeymoon period to wear off, but they'll be in a much better position to spend over the next few seasons.

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 05:28 PM) It's over. Kenny played his hand and it's just not gonna top what DET can offer. Damon is not gonna suddenly reconsider. He'll get his dollars from the Tigers and that will be that. I agree. The fact that Damon is even considering Detroit shows that he cares a lot more about the money than contending. He's going to take top dollar, and that won't be coming from the Sox.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 05:17 PM) Yes. They also don't have a 100 million dollar payroll. Neither will the Sox if they don't start winning. If they put up two more .500-ish seasons with $100M payrolls, Kenny very well may pull the plug and deal Peavy, Rios, etc. and start over with the pieces that he gets in return. When the Twins are consistently kicking your ass with 2/3 of the payroll, it's time to rethink your strategy.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 04:58 PM) You're just making a parody of my parody at this point. My post was just to point out that around those crappy roster fillers for the Twins were quality players. You completely missed my point about three "holes" being in the Twins' starting lineup last season, yet they still managed to win the division. By my count, this year's Sox team only has two "holes" and a much better pitching staff than MIN.

QUOTE (longshot7 @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 04:53 PM) To be fair, we don't have gigantic holes on this team. They've done a better job this year at filling their holes than in the past. No kidding. How many teams don't have an above-average #4 pitcher or an elite setup man?