WCSox

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Feb 17, 2010 -> 11:51 PM) If Damon doesn't happen and JD is willing to look at things from a reasonable point of view (moneywise, positionwise) I don't see why he can't be brought in at the last minute yet. Let him knock himself out in the field every once in a while and devote the rest of the time to justifying the letter 'H' in "DH". Teahen wearing 23 would end just as soon as the ink dried from Dye signing a 1 yr $Notalot contract with some incentives. He'd be worth a flyer at that price, but one has to wonder why he's apparently going to give up and retire so easily. Maybe he's been quietly battling nagging injuries over the past few years (it may explain the sudden drop-offs in production) and just doesn't feel it's worth fighting through the pain for Thome money?

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 06:03 PM) What do you say you reread my post, look at Pierre's numbers for more then the limited sample size of two months last year, and then be less snotty to me in your next response? No, I think I'll ignore your elitist rhetoric, incorrect statements, and flawed statistical analysis instead.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 04:43 PM) Wow, just wow. Look at his month by month splits, he is not that player, he had one really good month and then was back to his career averages. What, you mean that Pierre is the only player who doesn't put up the exact same numbers every month? Say it ain't so! Pierre put up a .455 OBP in March/Arpil, a .435 OBP in may, and a .413 OBP in August. Those three months accounted for 262 of his 380 at-bats, and that's pretty freaking impressive for a guy who didn't play regularly for much of the season. Some of you people need to do your homework before posting. QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 04:53 PM) Yes, and getting Adrian Gonzalez would be the reason in this scenario you are forcing upon me to bench Pierre. It's pretty reasonable Okay, again in this hypothetical, you are adding in Carlos Quentin getting injured. And again, there are worse things than having adrian gonzalez at 1b, PK at DH, and that OF. I don't know how long in this hypothetical you are saying Quentin will be injured for. But in the short term you can live with that defense. Yeah, I basically agree that, aside from roster and defensive issues, having Damon and AGon on the Sox would be a good thing. My overarching point is that you're way too focused on DH, OBP/OPS, and 2010. If you take DH out of the equation, the lineup isn't that bad at all. The Sox also have a team with much better pitching and much better defense than the vast majority of last year. A healthy Quentin and a productive Rios alone will ensure that they're better than 12th of 14th in offensive production.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 04:17 PM) You do realize that Pierre hasn't put up those types of numbers for more then a two month span in about 5 years, right? Pierre hit .308, put up a .365 OBP, and stole 30 bases in 380 ABs last season. Thanks for playing.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 04:16 PM) Yes, it is a very unlikely scenario, that's why I'd bet more on the latter move happening than the former. But for one, paying pierre DOUBLE what we are paying did not stop the dodgers from sitting him. Why? It made their offense better. The Dodgers have a lot more money than we do and were stupid to pay Pierre what they did. Hence their decision to eat half of his remaining contract. Also remember that Pierre was only on the bench because of Manny. I can't think of many players that would beat out Manny for a spot in LF. Pierre was also outstanding during Manny's suspension (.360 OBP). Damon in RF? Are you f'n kidding me? Have you seen his arm recently? He'd be worse than Pods in RF. The Sox would get 1.5 years of AGon. He has a $5.5M club option for 2011. The problem really isn't their relative defensive prowess. It's the fact that the roster is being clogged by more people who can't play defense at all, and nobody who can play RF when Quentin inevitably gets hurt again. I'm not advocating that having Damon and AGon on the same roster is a horrible situation that the Sox should avoid at all costs. But a situation like that would present serious roster issues (no backup RF, the possibility of limiting the pitching staff, etc.). Not insurmountable ones, but these are still legitimate problems. If I'm waiting to see how things shake out in June before thinking of adding to this team, these are even more reasons to not bother with somebody like Damon right now.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 03:50 PM) Oh no, we would have to DFA kotsay and Jones? We would have to bench Pierre? We'd have a good DH and amazing 1b? This is like my wet dream. Pierre is a .290-.300 hitter who is good for a .330-.350 OBP and steals 30+ bases a year at a 75-80% clip. That's a perfect #9 hitter and relegating him to the bench with a $4M salary is an incredibly dumb idea. It's even dumber to rely on him to play RF or CF when Quentin suffers yet another injury. If the Sox somehow acquired both AGon and Damon (which is extremely unlikely to begin with), they'd have to trade Pierre for a cheap RF to make it work. Otherwise, it would make the lineup even more one-dimensional than it already is and it would downgrade the outfield defense. If the Sox are seriously going to make a run at AGon, it would make a lot more sense to just leave Damon out of the picture.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 03:42 PM) Try 8 years, $180M if he keeps up his 2009 level of production. He's an elite talent and he'll land elite money. Yeah, I agree that the Sox wouldn't sign AGon to a new deal if they traded for him. He'd be a 1.5 year rental.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 03:30 PM) And, sure, you could acquire Damon and, at some point, pick up Gonzalez but there would be no real reason to have them both. Not only that, but there's no room for both of them. AGon would likely play 1B, which would move Paulie to DH. If you wanted to maintain a 12-man pitching staff, Jones and Kotsay would have to be DFA'd. Pierre would have to be benched (which is a waste) with Damon taking over in LF. And if Quentin got hurt (again), you wouldn't have a legit RF anymore. The only way that this would be doable would be to carry 11 pitchers on the roster and hope that Jones stayed healthy enough to play RF if something happened to Q.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 03:05 PM) I'm not saying it will happen. Right now it appears San Diego is pretty content on keeping him unless they get a real strong offer. But if he is available the Sox are gonna make a push and have made plenty of attempts during the off-season already. If Freddy is durable and semi-effective this year, I would seriously consider offering a package featuring Hudson for AGon. His club $5.5M club option for 2011 is nothing and he would overlap with Mark's (likely) last year here.

QUOTE (longshot7 @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 01:34 PM) It appears to be done. http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/9301693034

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 12:19 PM) Again, I find it ironic, then, that you want to trade away the talent that we'd have cheaply for 6 years in the future for a one or two year player we can't afford to re-sign. I'd be hesitant to trade Hudson, but would probably deal Flowers for somebody like Crawford (who is a hell of a lot better than Damon)... IF this team showed that it could do better than 2nd or 3rd place. In your mind, spending on declining veterans guarantees winning. In the real world, it does not. I present 2007 and 2009 as evidence. In your world, Johnny Damon instantly turns the Sox into a winner. In the real world, adding a declining player with a nice OBP to a 79-win team doesn't help all that much. If Damon helps the Sox win 6 more games this year (and that's an extremely generous estimate), that still won't be enough to win the division. So not only do the Sox not win that many more games, but they're even further in the hole because there wasn't nearly enough attendance revenue to offset the increased payroll. Damon isn't going to make this lineup MUCH more balanced. More like SLIGHTLY more balanced. You seem to be confusing him with Pujols or A-Rod. What will make or break this lineup is Quentin's health and Rios' ability to rebound. LOL, this team has spent the past four years "rolling the dice with a $100 million payroll" on dinosaurs like Dye and Linebrink who didn't produce when needed, despite what they were worth on paper. To the contrary, it's the RESULT of a $100 million payroll. In the real world, businesses have to operate on budgets. When you spend $53M on four starting pitchers and three bullpen arms, there's less for allocation to other positions. The majority of the current lineup (Pierre, Beckham, Quentin, Konerko, Rios, AJ, Alexei) is actually halfway decent. Not as good as it could be but, again, budgets matter. I find it ironic that you're whining about one freaking position (DH, to boot) when the rest of the lineup is decent (minus Teahen, who is "meh") and the pitching staff is excellent. And I find it even more ironic that you're whining about a declining Johnny Damon potentially not being signed after Kenny delivered both Peavy and Rios last summer and is carrying a $100M payroll in the face of a severe recession and waning ticket sales. Talk about ungrateful. A lot of fans would kill for a GM with the stones to do that and an owner who was willing to bankroll it. If you want to complain about Kenny not signing Thome for dirt-cheap, I'm with you. That makes sense. Whining about not out-bidding the Tigers for one year of Johnny Damon makes no sense.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:31 AM) I have no idea what you're argument is, WCsox, but if it's that we should fill a DH spot with "floor is their ceiling" s*** DH players just because you were hurt in the past by our underperforming veterans, than I guess we agree to disagree. My argument is that owners and general managers don't look at their team in the same way that you do. You seem to have this notion that spending, spending, and more spending on veteran talent is the answer, despite the fact that that strategy has failed miserably in two of the past three seasons and that the Sox are already teetering on a $100M payroll with dwindling fan interest. Coincidentally, none of this money comes out of your own pocket and your ass isn't the one on the line when high-priced players like Dye, Rios, and Linebrink bomb down the stretch. This isn't a video game. Results matter in this business. If you don't get the correct ones, either your funding gets cut or you get fired. If you want to complain as a fan about the Sox not wanting to pay Damon the $9M or so that it would take to keep him from going to Detroit, that's your prerogative. But in the real world, that's not how things work. Hell, I'm sure that JR and the board would approve Kenny's request to fork over another $15M if he could agree to terms with a high-impact player that would likely add another 10 wins to this team and stimulate gate revenue (via winning) to offset that cost. (Remember, this happened TWICE last summer... and you know what the results were.) But since Kenny apparently doesn't think that Damon is going to turn the Sox into an instant contender, he's not going to continue to put his ass (and his job) on the line for people like you.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:10 AM) also in 2007 we had Darren Erstadt in CF and leadoff. Ugh god. And then a bunch of injuries you can't foresee, I know. In 2006 we had anderson. I won't fault them for that, it was his time, but the mackowiak/anderson debacle that year really was a big problem. Though the pitching staff falling apart was worse. In other words, having those holes in the lineup before the season started aren't what really hurt those teams. High-priced veterans that didn't produce (due to either declining skills or injury) were. QUOTE (gatnom @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 11:15 AM) Well, you can't take any position in a vacuum like you just did with our DH right there. Andruw Jones as your DH sounds a lot worse when you realize that our offense was ranked 12 out of 14 in the AL in terms of runs scored last year. Our pitching, on the other hand, was ranked 2 of 14, and look where that got us: 7.5 games out of first place with a losing record. You do need to have some sort of balance to a team. So, while I would agree that pitching is generally more important than hitting while building a team, you can't just make the 12th worst offense in the AL even worse and then justify that by saying it's only one position. Part of improving the offense is getting rid of Dye, who has been worthless after the ASB in two of the last three seasons. Part of our low offensive output last year was losing Quentin to injury and then trying to play through the injury. A healthy Quentin will help tremendously, and Pierre will probably be an upgrade over Dye at this point in their respective careers. Rios hitting even halfway decently will also be a plus. I completely agree that this team lacks balance, and that it's an issue. But I don't think that the offense is going to be as bad as they were last year. They may be below-average (maybe 9th or 10th out of 14), but still good enough to compliment an elite rotation and a (hopefully) solid bullpen.

QUOTE (RibbieRubarb @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 10:58 AM) Would you have called Podsednik and Iguchi competent players before 2005?.... Iguchi had a nice career in Japan prior to 2005. Pods posted a .379 OBP and was #2 in the ROY voting in 2003 (and stole 70 bases the following season). So, yeah, I'd say that those guys were pretty competent before joining the Sox.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 10:47 AM) So, like 2007 and 2009, we are going to start the season with a huge, gaping offensive hole Who was our "gaping offensive hole" going into 2007? If you're talking about Wise being the gaping hole that doomed us last year, you're off base there as well. My God, dude, it's ONE FREAKING POSITION. Would you rather that "gaping hole" be in the starting rotation or in the closer or setup role? If the one big negative on my team is Andruw Jones at DH, that's far from the worst thing in the world. Like Pierre and Teahen? The high-priced veteran sluggers and bullpen arms that haven't produced are what have hurt this team in recent years. Much more so than having a career AAA guy like Dewayne Wise in the lineup. IMO, it's better to spend resources when it appears that you actually have a good chance of winning. If this team pitches like the 2005 squad, trading somebody like Flowers for Crawford is worth the gamble, IMO. Prospects are prospects until they prove otherwise, and it's not like the Sox look like world-beaters every May and June.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 10:34 AM) He struggled with a new team, so what? Remember how bad Dye sucked when he first got here in 2005? Dye's sucking obviously wasn't relegated to early 2005. Therefore, I don't think that it had anything to do with a change of scenery. If Rios is entering his prime and isn't hurt, there's no reason for his numbers to be steadily declining. There's also no reason for him to go from above-average to terrible when going from a bad clubhouse to a better one. Kenny also needed a middle reliever, and paid $3M for Putz. I disagree that Pierre is a "glorified bench player." Pierre put up a .350+ OBP last year and is a consistent near-.300 hitter who steals 30+ bases a season. He only rode the pine in LA because of Manny, and it's pretty difficult to fault him for that. And I'll take Teahen over Getz or Nix. You're way too fixated on the DH position. If that's the only hole that the Sox currently have (given their very good pitching and relatively solid defense), they're not in bad shape at all. On the surface, I'd say that Kenny screwed up by not bringing Thome back into the fold for what turned out to be a rock-bottom price. But if Kenny decides that moving the payroll from $99M to $107M to sign Damon is poor cost/benefit, I won't begrudge him. Johnny Damon isn't going to make or break this squad. Starting pitching, the bullpen, and Quentin staying healthy are MUCH more critical to this team's success than somebody like Damon or Matsui.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 09:45 AM) And if we weren't negotiating, he would have said, that ship has sailed. Not necessarily. If I were him, I wouldn't say anything. If the Tigers believe that Kenny and Boras are still talking, they have more incentive to cave in to Boras' demands. I'm beginning to believe that Kenny thinks that, one way or the other, Damon will be signed by Sunday, and that's what his comments likely refer to.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 10:08 AM) So you aren't willing to spend 4-5 million on a high OBP guy (which we lack), but are willing to waste a 100 million dollar roster with the best pitching staff on paper since 06 I never said that I wouldn't spend that kind of money on Damon (and Kenny and JR apparently haven't, either, as they reportedly offer him $7M). But if Damon wants $8M or $9M, I could see why Kenny would choose to tell him to go away. How many high-OBP guys did we have in 2007 and 2009? Where did that get us? Look at the level of talent that the 2008 team had, and they couldn't do any better than one playoff victory. This team has under-achieved so badly over the past three years that it's not even funny. Who is likely to help this team more down the stretch: Johnny Damon or Carl Crawford? Johnny Damon or Adrian Gonzalez? Wouldn't you package Flowers with a couple of other prospects for Cawford? I sure as hell would. And speaking of rental players, I haven't seen any evidence of the Sox offering Damon anything more than a one-year deal. Damon is, in effect, a rental player as well. The Sox don't have unlimited funds and it's silly to whine and b**** about them not over-paying for a declining DH like Damon or Matsui. Especially when DH is really the only hole on this team. Complaining about Thome is fine... I get that and I agree that he should've been brought back. But the rest of this is just whining. The starting pitching is outstanding, the bullpen is very good, the outfield defense has improved substantially over the past 6 months. Given the contracts they're currently carrying, having a flawless roster is out of the question. Again, what's the downside to waiting and seeing how this team plays before deciding to invest more heavily in it?

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 09:26 AM) Kenny was willing to go 5/$75M with Hunter, so Rios isn't a problem. As over-paid as he may be, Hunter is much more accomplished and consistent than Rios, and thus is a much safer bet to produce. There's no question that Rios has the talent, but I don't like all of these rumors about his work ethic. He's declined over the past three seasons and was an absolute failure at the plate in Chicago last year. Of course, I expect Rios to rebound, but to what extent? It's far from a lock that he'll return to his '06 and '07 numbers. And even if he gets back to his '08 numbers, he's still overpaid in this market. Kenny gambled on a bad contract. I (obviously) hope that it works out, but I'm not holding my breath. Kenny had a crapload of holes to fill this off-season and spent like drunken politician last summer, so it's not that surprising that he rounded the lineup out with cheap options like Teahen and Vizquel, took a low-risk gamble on Jones, and got a good contact-hitting/base-stealing LF in Pierre at half of his (bad) contract price. I don't think that's necessarily a "backwards" way to fill a roster. I can understand why Kenny wouldn't want to pay $6.5M for Matsui, but I'm still baffled by his decision to not bring Thome back at the $1.5M or whatever it was that he got from MIN. THAT was not a smart move. Overall, though, Kenny's mindset is probably this: "We spent a s***-ton of money on high-priced veteran talent over the past four years and have a one division title (barely) and a whopping one playoff victory to show for it. Last year's team was a major disappointment and was over-crowded with aging dinosaurs who didn't produce and took up way too much payroll. Why, then, would I want to over-pay for good-but-not-great-and-overpriced players on the decline, like Matsui and Damon? Especially when my team is already teetering on a $100M payroll and I committed $100M to Peavy and Rios just 6 months ago? We don't have the luxury of having a stud at every position. If we have to skimp on DH for the time being, so be it. If this team shows some spark and looks like it can compete it June, I'll consider trading for a high-impact player like Crawford or Adrian Gonzalez. Until then, I don't see a reason to over-pay for declining talent to go 79-83 again."

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 09:23 AM) I disagree. I think Damon being on this team could be the difference between the Sox or the Twins winning the division. Even if you believe that, Damon isn't going to propel the Sox to a pennant and the Sox aren't going to want him for more than one year. Looking at the big picture, Damon isn't all that valuable. If the Sox surprise during the first half and look like they can actually compete with the Yankees, Red Sox, etc., guys like Crawford and Adrian Gonzalez will likely be available. Both are higher-impact players than Damon and the Sox have enough young talent to trade for them.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 09:16 AM) Yeah, they do break the rule sometimes, the multi-year deal to MB and the PK deal they went an extra year or two that I think they normally would. The PK deal was market value (and, IIRC, less than what the Orioles allegedly offered him). Mark's deal was only one more year than what the Sox typically offer post-arb pitchers, but he's obviously a special case (like PK). That said, Kenny got Mark to sign for WAY BELOW his market value (remember Zito signing for $120M?). I imagine that Mark could've gotten at least another $20M on the FA market, it not more. Indeed. JR had no trouble finding the money for Peavy, and I believe that he's worth every penny.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 09:10 AM) "If we have the opportunity to get really better, the money will be there," Reinsdorf said. "I wouldn't hesitate to take the chance if something really good comes along." That's a quote from JR from this off-season, originally posted by Chw42 JR has done nothing in the past with the White Sox for me not to believe this. Now does this mean he's going to break the bank and overspend? No, but just because many people believe that Damon is the player that fits this description doesn't mean the organization does. I agree that Damon isn't this player (and Kenny/JR appear to believe so as well). It'd be nice to have him round out the lineup, but he's not a game-changer.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 09:00 AM) That's one thing I really like about KW's and the White Sox payroll management. They value a player and rarely go over that value in years or money. Overspending can get out of control quickly. The Cubs have a higher payroll than the Sox and because Jim Hendry made his own markets or outbid teams for players the Cubs were basically frozen this off-season and could pretty much only switch dollar for dollar. I agree in general, but Kenny broke that rule big-time with Rios. One could argue that Rios' contract froze Kenny out of the Damon/Abreu sweepstakes.

QUOTE (IamPabloOzuna @ Feb 17, 2010 -> 10:38 PM) Albert Belle circa 1998. I don't care if its more than 5 years ago. BA: .328 OBP: .399 SLG: .655 (1st in MLB) HR: 49 RBI: 152 R: 113 He was very good the following year, but his degenerative hip reduced him to an average LF in 2000 and he was out of baseball the following year. I'm glad that JR put that "out" clause in his contract, as Belle ended up voiding his Sox contract and got a new 5/$65M deal from Baltimore after the '98 season. The Orioles' insurance picked up the final three years of that deal, but I can't imagine that they were happy with Belle taking up a spot on the 40-man roster for those three years as a condition of the insurance policy. His '98 season was amazing, though. Especially considering how poorly he hit in April and May.