WCSox

I'm all for resting veterans and seeing what minor leaguers can do in the bigs when a team is eliminated (or extremely close). But regardless of who is out there, these guys need to be serious and an effort to win has to be there. I'm glad that Ozzie is pissed.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 10:10 PM) Every rational baseball fan could have told the White Sox organization that Swisher would bounce back. Every meaningful statistic pointed towards that conclusion. Unfortunately, those statistics don't account for the fact that Ozzie and Swisher didn't like each other and Swisher wasn't working with Greg Walker. If you and your boss don't like working together, you're not going to be as productive at work.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 10:53 AM) But i just really believe that great pens get cobbled together and that to be a good team, you have to rely on some good luck with a reliever having a career year. I like building around an established closer and an established setup man. Some of the recent Angels teams with K-Rod and Shields are a good blueprint.

QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 04:56 PM) Link to the veterans complaining about him. I know Ozzie didn't like him, but I don't recall any teammates ripping on him. Since Sox players don't rip each other through the media, I have no link. This information was posted by a member earlier this year. I have no idea if it's true or not (hence my use of the word "alleged"), but it's not difficult to imagine veterans not liking a guy who high-fives a poster of himself in the dugout. And let's pretend for a minute that Swish's teammates last year loved him. Ozzie didn't, and that's the difference-maker. When things went bad for Swish last year, he sulked and refused to work with Walker. That's a not-so-subtle way of demanding a trade. If Ozzie and Swish didn't like each other, I have a difficult time believing that Swisher would've been productive in Chicago. Unhappy workers tend to not be productive workers. It never became an "albatross." It became a lot of money for an immature jackass who didn't get along with the coaching staff, slumped badly down the stretch last year, and didn't offer much defensively. While I'm not a fan of Rios' contract and think THAT decision may make the Swisher signing/salary-dump look like small potatoes, Rios is a better overall player than Swisher and he can play CF, which is huge. Swish is a LF/1B with a girlie arm. Peavy is a Cy Young-winning stud who will win this team a ton of games next year, and I have no problem with Kenny paying him top dollar.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 03:40 PM) Swisher trade in retrospect shouldn't have been made. Honestly, KW, from what it sounds like, is going to look for a guy like him who they could swap out at DH and place in different positions such as OF/1B/DH, he has a good OBP and has good enough power. Swisher was a bad fit on this team, period. Ozzie and (allegedly) most of the veterans thought that he was a jackass. And when Swish slumped, he sulked and wouldn't listen to Walker. Don't automatically assume that Swish would've kicked ass at the plate had he been on the Sox this year. He didn't like playing here and the other people in the dugout didn't want here either. It's difficult to be productive in a work environment like that.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 12:21 PM) Dotel has stepped up quite a bit during his tenure here, and his poor (by his standards) year in 2009 shouldn't in any way make it seem like he's another Javy at all. We had a lot more to play for last year than we did this year and overall he did very well. Relievers in general, especially non-closing ones, are just like that, they have big ups and downs all year. Dotel was never the same after blowing out his elbow. He's had some decent seasons since (2005, 2007) and was good overall last year, but he's just too erratic to work in the closer or setup roles. And while his performance is more than good enough for a middle reliever, he's going to command a lot more than average and his age (turns 36 in January) may become problematic. If we were Yankees-rich, he'd be a nice guy to bring in during the 7th. But, alas, that isn't the case.

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 02:08 PM) Phil Rogers is a f***ing moron. At the very least, he obviously cares more about incorporating controversy into his articles than thoughtful baseball writing. One would have to be inhumanly stupid to honestly believe that dealing Peavy for Zambrano would be a good idea for the Sox. I'll give Phil the benefit of the doubt and conclude that he's working hard to pander to the Jay Hineybird demographic.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 04:44 AM) First off, Thornton's 97 is a lot quicker than most 97s because of his easy motion. Secondly, if you threw Thornton into Jenks' appearances in 2009, there is no doubt in my mind he would have at least 30 saves. Most guys would. Jenks had a bad year. As far as closer stuff, he has a BAA of .217 an OBPA of .273 and strikes out more than one an inning. There is no question his "stuff" is good enough to be a solid closer. The only negative I see in making Thornton Jenks' permanent replacement is what other lefty is available for the Sox. Williams isn't the answer. But maybe a lefty set up guy is part of the package for Jenks. Of course, that assumes that the Sox will be able to get anything of value for a guy who will command at least $6.5M next year and has an injured calf. Like I've said before, it's difficult to argue with Thornton's performance this year. But I have a difficult time having faith in a guy who throws almost all fastballs and his only offspeed pitch is a weak slider that he can't throw for strikes consistently. Good closers change speeds (Hoffman) and/or have good movement (Rivera). Thornton does neither. Maybe his transition to closer will be seamless, and he'll be just as effective. Maybe his lack of secondary pitches and the increased attention on him (studying film) will allow hitters to figure him out. I honestly have no idea which way it'll go.

QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 10:32 AM) No, my risk assesment is dead on. Yours is flawed. Those guys may be on the wrong side of 30. Pena shouldn't be closing. There are plenty of other closers out there and ones that you can sign or deal for that don't a body that people predicted would break down and now is. Yep, plenty of closers out there, they grow on trees, the grass is greener on the other side, they can get better value elsewhere, etc. Your assessment that Jenks doesn't know how to pitch is just flat-out wrong. Due throws a mid-90's fastball and has a great hook. Having injury and command problems doesn't equate to not knowing how to pitch. Again, he hasn't thrown in the upper 90's for four years, and he's been much more effective throwing in the mid-90's with good offspeed stuff. His "choosing to not throw hard" worked out pretty well last year and the year before that. Wrong He won't cost that much. Nice straw-man argument, but I've never advocated that. Wrong Yeah, of course it isn't. It would be completely out of character for you to launch personal attacks here. I've had the Extra Innings package since moving out here. I see him hitting 94-96 on a consistent basis, I see him throwing good offspeed pitches, and I've seen him dominate as recently as a year ago with that same arsenal. Jenks' problems this year were due to command (fixable) and injuries (also fixable). I see no evidence that his arm will fall off within the next 12 months. Bobby was much worse in 2006 than he was this season. He had no command, gave up almost double the amount of walks that he did this year, and consequently got hit all over the place (sound familiar?). Bobby then followed it up with a Rivera-like 2007. I'm not saying that Bobby will repeat 2007 next year, but he'll be worth the $6.5-7M or so he'll command if he brings his WHIP down to 1.22 (his career average is 1.18) and saves 40 games.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 03:23 AM) At what point do you stop looking at career numbers though? Octavio Dotel is going to be 36 next season. He is a hit or miss pitcher every time he comes into the game, and you can't count on a reliever to do that after the 7th inning. You have to either look at him as a setup man, or you have to say see ya. I wouldn't mind Dotel returning for one more year at half of his current price. But you're absolutely right that he shouldn't be pitching past the 7th, and I'm not sure that the Sox can afford a $3M middle reliever right now.

QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Sep 26, 2009 -> 12:07 AM) He did a lot of good for us but he also has done things that don't deserve a BUSINESS, like the White Sox are, to RISK him being here any further. You'll see me gradually approach this same RISK theory with Quentin if he continues to be an injury issue that now isn't producing. You all can disagree but when we have another 2009 season next year or the year after because we hung onto these guys and the same reoccuring theme happens, it'll be disappointing because it could've been avoided. Regardless of if they both have career years next year. It's an unnecessary risk. There are other players out there, in this case, other closers, who can perform better then Jenks for cheaper and without the risk. Jenks also still has relative value to get something for him and take advantage of that "gift". And that is the point. Your assessment of "risk" is flawed because it doesn't take into account the other options. Bobby for one year at $7M is a much less risky prospect than a free agent like Valverde or Qualls, who are both on the wrong side of 30 and will command multi-year deals of $15M or more. He's also less risky than Pena or some other inferior in-house solution. The only acceptable in-house solution is Thornton, who carries additional risk because (1) he's never closed over the long-term and (2) moving Thornton to closer leaves a gaping hole in the setup role and takes away the ability to use him as a LOOGY every once in a while. A proven closer who is one year removed from an All Star-caliber season and is under team control from year-to-year is about as least risky as it gets. Let's say that Kenny re-signs Bobby to another one-year deal this winter and he continues to put up mediocre numbers in April and May. Then you deal him for a setup man and move Thornton to the closer role. Bobby's going to bring a lot less in return now with an injured (possibly torn) calf. If you want to get something of value in return, you're going to have to re-sign him to another one-year deal, let him show that he's healthy, and shop him in June. I agree that last winter was the time to deal him, IF that's what you were interested in doing. But this is a baseball team, not the stock market. Trying to win trumps getting maximum returns on assets. Bobby hasn't thrown 100 consistently since 2005. His best years were 2007 and 2008, when he consistently threw 94-97. Obviously, if velocity were everything, guys like Kyle Farnsworth and Bobby Howry would've been perennial All Stars.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 25, 2009 -> 08:55 AM) He's erratic. When he is on, he is nasty. But you can tell from the first batter if he is on or not, and if he's not, he's very hittable. And that's part of the problem with evaluating Dotel with "overall numbers." He was a stud in April and May of last year, and then fell apart shortly after the ASB. His overall stats from last year don't reflect that downward trend. Since Dotel hasn't pitched at a sustained high level like that this season, I'm more than happy to part ways with him this winter. As somebody else suggested, it might be wise to offer him another contract at half his current price. But his current salary is WAY too high.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 25, 2009 -> 08:43 AM) drastically? They are almost identical http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/doteloc01.shtml his ERA is actually lower this year(i have no idea how). He dropped off on his K rate a bit, but it was off the charts last year. His walk total increased which is probably why I dont trust him anymore, but there has been no drastic dropoff Identical??? His WHIP increased from 1.21 to 1.46. WHIP is a much better metric for a reliever than ERA. Look at his game-by-game numbers from last year. He went from borderline-dominant early on to a gas can in August/September.

I'll say Detroit, because I feel sorry for anybody who has to live in that craphole of a city. QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2009 -> 08:33 AM) For the integrity of the game, every team should play their best in these games. Anything less is a road towards professional wrestling. I can see why teams that are out of it might want to shut down certain players, but I agree in general.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 25, 2009 -> 08:13 AM) although his numbers havent changed too much His numbers has changed drastically since about July of last year. Dude was lights-out before that.

QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 08:03 PM) Yeah because God knows the Sox couldn't find someone to make up some of his production. But as I stated in that post I would rather deal PK than Buehrle As good as Mark is, the rest of the rotation is in pretty good shape. Right now, PK is the only Sox hitter with an OPS of .850. No doubt that Mark is more valuable, but the Sox will be absolutely starving for offense next year if PK is sent packing.

QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 03:55 PM) I would rather deal PK than deal Mark. I can't imagine how bad our offense will be next year without PK in the lineup. Quentin would draw 200 walks.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 12:01 PM) http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...T-sox24.article Can you honestly assess who is a quitter in MLB? Players that have an off year, are they quitters? Guys who don't take extra BP while they're slumping, guys who don't work overtime with Coop to fix mechanical flaws, guys who have poor body language in the dugout, etc.

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 11:41 AM) f*** small ball. I like Kenny's idea. OBP and extra base hits score runs. Utilizing a combination of both would make more sense.

QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 11:23 AM) I think Konerko with a small ball team would be better next year, same with AJ. They seem to be better hitters that can be more productive if they are just trying ot hit the ball especially with runners on. Quentin was this way last year, not so much this year. Thome and Dye are not good for this type of ball. I still like another year of Thome at DH (mostly because he's an OBP guy), but I agree with the overall de-emphasis of offensive slugging. I'd like to see the closer role secured this winter (whether that be Jenks or somebody else) and would like another middle reliever brought in (doesn't have to be a big-money guy). I'd also like to see Alexei and Nix play winter ball this year. They both need to work out the "uh-ohs." If we get bounce-back years from Quentin and Rios next year, I think that our offense will be decent. Strengthening the bullpen, strengthening the middle infield defense, and emphasizing moving runners along are key. If they can make progress there, this rotation will make the Sox dangerous next year.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 10:52 AM) What if Kenny traded him to St Louis? He'd probably waive the NTC. But do they even have something we need not named Pujols? I'd love to have Wainwright as a closer, but he's not going anywhere. Plus, he probably insist on starting anyway.

QUOTE (flavum @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 05:02 AM) I don't think Buehrle will get traded. He's still a productive starter and I think his contract would make a new team take 2 yrs/$30 mil. If I had one surprise traded player, I'd go with Alexei Ramirez. I agree with this. Mark's an important piece of this franchise and dealing him with two years left on his deal seems unlikely (especially when he's still pretty good). Up until yesterday, I'd say that Jenks was the most likely to be dealt. Now it's probably Alexei (although I don't think that he goes anywhere).

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 08:46 AM) Pretty sure that MB will miss his last start as well Given how bad he's been in his last two starts (and below-average overall for the past two months) and that we're basically out of it, I think that this is the smart move.

At the very least, I think that Nix's versatility (2B, SS, 3B) makes him the leading candidate to be our infield platoon guy next year. He needs to cut down on the errors, but the physical talent in clearly there. I don't see Getz being as effective in this role. My guess is that Nix starts out as our utility guy in April and Getz is our starting 2B, with Nix getting more playing time than the average utility player. If Getz moves his OBP up closer to .350, he's our new leadoff hitter and Nix takes a diminished role. If Getz's OBP continues to hang in the .330 range, he hits 9th and Nix continues to get a lot of at-bats. If Getz slumps or gets hurt again, Nix is our starting 2B and hits in the lower 3rd of the lineup. My feeling is that Ozzie and Kenny want to see if Getz can become the leadoff hitter than this team needs. His skill set is well-suited for the role (good contact hitter, great base-runner, very high stolen base %, left-handed bat), EXCEPT for the fact that he needs to take a lot more walks. If Getz can't learn to take more walks, he's a #9 hitter and arguably more valuable off the bench. If Getz can't secure the leadoff spot, I think that Nix's power and defensive versatility eventually secure him the starting 2B spot.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 06:12 AM) and he's a 95% one pitch pitcher, so its far from a guarantee he'd be a successful closer. IMO, this is the biggest red flag. I can't argue with Thornton's results in the setup role, but he doesn't even throw as fast as Bobby did when he was a one-trick pony. All of the really good closers either have a great offspeed pitch or great movement. Thornton has neither, and because of this I'd say that his ceiling as a closer is rather low. He may be effective in that role, but I'd like to see the Sox look elsewhere for the long-term.