WCSox
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QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 07:08 AM) I'm not defending him. I'm arguing with the logic here that the reason for the White Sox sucking is Greg Walker's fault. Perhaps the Sox need a new conditioning coach?
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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 07:00 AM) Then how come it's the entire lineup that slumps late each year, including youngsters and whichever free agents we bring in? I don't recall the entire lineup slumping every single year in August and September. Guys like JD and JT seem to have the most problems. Given their age and the fact that the MLBPA has allowed for the testing of amphetamines over the past four years, fatigue seems to be a more likely candidate. This is an old lineup. As far as Walker goes, I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Maybe a change of approach would benefit the Sox hitters. Then again, I'm not betting on it.
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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 06:57 AM) I knew it. You ARE Greg Walker. No, I'm not trying to defend Walker. It's a serious question. Doesn't the age of the middle of our lineup seem like a more plausible reason for a consistent decline in production at the end of every year?
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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 24, 2009 -> 06:49 AM) I'd bet that 9 out of 10 organizations would have fired their hitting coach after several consecutive seasons of abysmal August and Septembers. If a team hits from April through July, how is it Walker's fault that they don't hit in August and September? That sounds more like an age problem than a hitting coach problem.
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QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 09:28 PM) Are you being intentionally dim here, or are you just oblivious to what Nix has been doing all year? If you'd remove your nose from Nix's jockstrap and watch the games, you might notice that he hasn't been anything close to an above-average defender at 2B or SS. I see the range and a lot of talent, but I haven't seen consistent, competent execution yet. Yeah, and according to UZR and Range Runs Against Average, Alexei is supposedly better at SS this year than he was at 2B last year (UZR of +3.6 vs. -8.3, respectively). Anybody who bothered to watch the games would correctly conclude that Alexei was solid at 2B last year and blows at SS this year. Defensive metrics are dubious at best, and vary from source to source, depending on how they're defined. For example, BP gives Getz a higher RAA at 2B than Nix this year (6 vs. 2). The RAA based on UZR at Fangraphs gives the opposite conclusion.
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QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 09:14 PM) Wow, you're all sorts of wrong. Nix has been fantastic all year. He's been the best defender on our team ALL YEAR. Anybody who's actually watched Nix play SS or 2B this year can clearly see that he's been an error-machine and hasn't played plus-defense. Same goes or Alexei. Range and raw talent don't necessarily equal results. Too bad that his play on the field doesn't. He's also sporting a mediocre .757 OPS. How many homers was Josh Fields on pace to hit in 2007? I love how you bring Getz into the conversation and trash him, automatically assuming that I'm pining for Getz to take Nix's spot. And that would be bad, bad, bad, since you're so emotionally-invested in Nix. The truth is that I don't see either one making a case for himself right now.
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QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 08:57 PM) Look at the real numbers. Error's is a flawed statistic, becasue it doesn't account for the range of the fielder, or the effort it took for said fielder to get to the point of making a play on the ball. Nix has tremendous range, and has saved a tremendous amounts of run for a team that suffered for defense. I'll grant that he's prone to making some poor choices in the field, but more often then not, he get's the job done in an extraordinary fashion. Bullcrap. Nix has been nothing short of a butcher in the middle infield this year, yet you consistently hold his nuts and make excuses for him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing him off yet. I see that he has talent. But, like Alexei, it doesn't mean much if he consistently botches routine plays. If Nix expects to be the starting 2B next year, he needs to either cut down on the errors or start hitting the ball like Jose Valentin. A guy with great range who can't hit and consistently gives the opponent extra outs isn't worth much on a major league roster.
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QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 08:31 PM) Nixs' glove makes up for nearly every offensive shortcoming he has. Nix has made Alexei look like Ozzie Smith this year. I realize that Nix is defensively talented and versatile, but it's difficult to skate by on potential at his age when he's a veritable error machine on the field.
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QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 05:21 PM) For the most part hitting and pitching coaches are whipping boys. Pitching coaches tend to be A LOT more important than hitting coaches. People like Coop, Dave Duncan, and Leo Mazzone have gotten A LOT out of pitchers who aren't all that great. Far fewer hitting coaches have had that the impact that these guys have.
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QUOTE (Kalapse @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 04:59 PM) Yep, he's on the Score daily and says the same damn thing every day. Basically: you better start getting used to Scotty Pods. It could be real tough to watch this team next year. If Pods hits next year like he did this year, he won't be difficult to watch at all.
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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 05:20 PM) I'm not talking about anybody on this board. I'm saying that if the organization is "sure" that any player is going to be falling off very shortly, then it is in their best interest to trade him. I have no idea what the organization thinks of Bobby in that regard, but neither do you. That is a valid reason to trade someone, though. I agree with that. It was pretty obvious that Freddy was damaged goods in 2006, and I don't recall anybody here objecting.
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QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 03:41 PM) Read the Oney twitter from last week to see who won't be back. I've read that his account was suspended. What did he say?
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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 02:52 PM) Another year of August/September hitting slumps. What does that have to do with Walker? It seems to me that the age of our most productive hitters and the relatively recent ban on greenies and other heavily-used stimulants would contribute to late-year slumps more than anything.
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QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 08:38 AM) I think we'll see Jenks again with the intention of unloading him by the trade deadline. Then again he might be better next season. I'd be perfectly fine with the Sox unloading Jenks at the deadline if either we're out of it, or if he's still struggling next year. Since he's under team control for 2011 as well, he'd have enough value to get us some decent prospects in return.
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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 02:14 PM) And that is what is worth noting - people are saying relievers suddenly wash out, which is true, but just as true is that most relievers, even good ones, have good and bad years. Doesn't mean they are done for. And unlike other closers on the FA market this winter, we won't have to sign Bobby to a three-year deal worth over $15M to find out. Roberto Hernandez put up a 1.53 WHIP in 1995, and improved to a 1.22 WHIP in 1996. For comparison's sake, Bobby posted a 1.28 WHIP this year.
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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 02:03 PM) Or (3), if you're sure the guy is going downhill at a very fast pace and he currently has some value in trade. I don't believe that anybody is "sure" of that. Bobby put up a 4.00 ERA and a 1.39 WHIP in 2006. We would've felt pretty stupid if we traded him at that point.
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QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 02:04 PM) One is an aging veteran (even that dropoff is extremely uncommon) and the other is a player with horrible back problems... You were originally comparing Rios' dropoff to Jenks' dropoff. That is ridiculous. You know as well as I do that relievers are a lot more prone to just "losing it" than a young, proven outfielder is. No, I was addressing your incorrect statement that position players don't suddenly tank. But if you want to believe that Alex Rios is more valuable than a solid closer, that's your business.
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QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 01:49 PM) Most people view an OF having a bad year differently than a reliever having a bad year. Relievers can often just turn to s***, while that usually doesn't happen to everyday players. JD and Joe Crede say hi.
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QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 01:14 PM) Rios and Konerko are players who help your team every day in every inning. Jenks is a player who helps your team during 1 inning probably once every 3 games. They are definitely worth more. Well, that's good, because Bobby will make about 70% of what those two make next year. The mid-90's Mariners teams are a good example of what happens when you skimp on your bullpen.
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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 10:57 AM) Well, here is what I mean. Let's say he gets that much. Now, you can put Thornton and his much lower salary (I think $2.5M) in that role, but he's not a closer and I give him at best a 50/50 shot at succeeding at even a 2009 Jenks rate. Likely, he'll do worse. Anyone we acquire in trade that is a proven closer will cost as much as Jenks anyway, maybe more in a combination of trade bait and salary. You could find a not yet major league guy in-system or elsewhere, give up something in trade maybe, but that is an even bigger crap shoot. I have no idea if Thornton would be more or less effective than Bobby is a closer role, but Thornton sure as heck is an unknown in that role. Do you role the dice on him in a year where you're sporting the best rotation in the bigs? I don't unless I'm financially constrained and have no other choice. One of the main arguments against Jenks is that he's "not worth" the $7M or so that he'll command next year. So what? Is Konerko worth $10M in today's market? No. Do we need a good OPS guy in the middle of the lineup? Yes. Is Rios worth $10M? No. Do we need somebody who can hit and play CF competently? Yes. I just don't see the problem in keeping Jenks around one more year. If he has another down year, THEN you dump him. The ability to force a successful player to go on a year-by-year contructual basis for a few seasons is a luxury, given the minimal financial risk. The argument that we should trade Bobby now before his trade value falls any lower is also misplaced. This is a baseball team, not an investment firm. The goal is to put together a winning team, not sell off assets at their point of highest value. If that logic applied to MLB, Kenny would be fielding offers for Danks and Beckham right now. Heck, look at how the Angels kept Figgins through all of his arb-eligible years, despite the fact that they could've dealt him for a nice package and saved millions a couple of years ago. Trading away a guy who has high market value for non-ML-ready prospects only makes sense if (1) you don't anticipate being competitive for more than a year or (2) there is somebody else who can step up and fill that role. Neither of those scenarios fit the Sox right now.
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QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 09:32 AM) I read one rumor on the internets that Jenks is hitting the bottle again and it's a distraction in the clubhouse. Now if THAT'S true, I'd be all for letting him walk as a FA. But I need more than internet innuendo to make that call.
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QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Sep 23, 2009 -> 08:47 AM) I'm sorry. Injuries are kinda sad. I frankly do not care because "calf" issues are hardly career threatening judging by how this all came about. It's only what a nice chunk of Sox fans have been predicting with this tub of lard. I figured it'd be his arm that did it but no surprise he is injured regardless. Or I don't believe he is hurt and this team is covering up for his horrendous season before he takes anymore of a hit to his trade value. Can we get over this Bobby Jenks love fest already? This guy is done as a "dominant" closer in the mold of what he aspired to be when he was able to gas people and drop a hook. Now he can hardly do either and is nothing more then your average closer, hell, maybe you average bullpen arm at this point. No "love fest" here. But I am perplexed at your irrational hatred of the guy. Dude helped us win a World Series for us and was a dominant closer in 2007 and 2008. Most rational Sox fans would be rooting for a guy like that to return to dominance, not for him to fail and be DFA'd.
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QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Sep 22, 2009 -> 10:16 PM) Fantastic. Both seriously and sarcastically. For one, I don't need to see him pitch anymore Yeah, it's really "fantastic" when a Sox player is injured.
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QUOTE (SoxAce @ Sep 22, 2009 -> 03:29 PM) I'd bet money that the Rays will ask and get much more for Upton than they would for Crawford. I would've agreed last year, but Upton's having a terrible season and that will undoubtedly lower his trade value. Not to mention his propensity for laziness and mental mistakes.
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Unless the Sox want to trade Hudson or Beckham, Kenny doesn't have the prospects to land either of these guys.