WCSox

One question that isn't being answered in this thread is why some people are so excited about throwing Hudson into a rotation already stocked with studs and semi-studs, when there's crap for talent in the bullpen. That mentality makes about as much sense as Hank Steinbrenner ordering Joe Girardi to make Joba Chaimberlain a starter last year, when the Yankees had no talent outside of Rivera in their bullpen. The Sox will lose Dotel in the off-season, they may lose Jenks, and will be relying on Linebrink, Pena, Carrasco, Randy Williams, and Thornton. If Jenks is dealt and Linebrink doesn't return to early 2008 form, the Sox are screwed. Because there's no money left over to offer a veteran another Dotel- or Linebrink-like multi-year deal. Hudson's incorporation into this team shouldn't be about making Hudson a starter immediately (even if he is ready) or to make the starting rotation as super bad-ass as humanly possible. It should be about addressing the needs of the pitching staff as a whole. Unless Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, or Danks goes down with an injury, that need will be in the bullpen.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Sep 7, 2009 -> 08:48 AM) Carlos and the Sox were being careful with him coming back from injury. If he had to learn new movements in RF, such as planting his feet and spinning around on balls hit to his left for throws to 2nd base, that he hadn't played in 2 years, it was probably too risky to have him in RF. The main thing was just getting Carlos' bat back in the lineup and not be a liability on defense. That hasn't been the remedy most hoped it would be for the offense. Well, yeah, you don't want to move him over there right now. But he could certainly get reps there in March.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Sep 7, 2009 -> 10:14 AM) Hudson threw 161 innings in '08. He can do close to 180 this year, if they want him to, and close to 200 innings next year as a logical progression. His youth and workload should NOT be an impediment to him winning the 5th starter job next year. It should be determined by his performance. Performance? Hudson is a 22-year-old prospect who's thrown a whole two innings in the majors. How does pitching well at AA translate into an effective #5 in the bigs? He's been good in AAA this year, but far from great. I also don't understand the need to throw Hudson in the rotation when our bullpen is currently in shambles and might be in even worse shape next year if Jenks is dealt. Hudson may very well help this team more as a 7th or 8th inning guy than a starter. He's certainly not going to be able to start for an entire season if 180 IP is his ceilling. As was noted earlier in this thread, he's going to throw more pitches per inning in the majors, so even 180 IP is something of a stretch. Hudson should definitely get the chance to compete for the #5 spot in ST. But Kenny would be insane to rely on this guy next year. And he may be more valuable in our bullpen next year anyway. At the very least, the Sox need a veteran backup plan. A dirt-cheap Freddy Garcia provides an ideal safety net. I like Hudson and think that he's going to be an effective part of this rotation in the next couple of years. But you guys need to stop hanging all over this kid's jock. Wait until he's actually done something in the bigs. Some of you seem to be penciling him into the rotation prematurely, with little regard for the disaster in the bullpen or what's good for Hudson in the long-term.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 7, 2009 -> 07:43 AM) Are we really going to start devaluing Dan Hudson as a prospect just to justify putting Freddy Garcia into the rotation? Do we really need to break down every good thing that comes along? Why are you in such a rush to push a young, raw prospect who hasn't pitched an inning in the majors straight into the rotation? Hudson will only be 23 in January and doesn't have anything near the arm strength to throw 200+ innings at this point. Even if the Sox didn't have Freddy as a #5 option, I'd seriously consider going with somebody like Torres and pitching Hudson out of the 'pen initially. When you have a rotation of Peavy/Buehrle/Floyd/Danks, there's no point in rushing a young prospect who isn't ready for a full work load as a starter.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 7, 2009 -> 07:08 AM) I really don't understand the fascination people have with moving Quentin to RF. There is nothing to indicate he would be anything less than a bad RF. The argument seems to be that he used to play RF. Well, Carlos Lee used to play 3B. Paul Konerko used to catch and play 3B. Why would Quentin be worse in RF than LF? Nobody will confuse his arm with Ichiro's, but it's still strong enough to play RF competently. Maggs never had a cannon, and he was fine out there. If the Sox can find somebody with better speed and range to play LF, I don't see any problem with moving Quentin over.

QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Sep 6, 2009 -> 08:36 PM) Honestly, I've never been a big fan of Jim Thome. I think he's exactly what the White Sox doesn need: a player who's only strenght is the long ball. On-base percentage was one of JT's strengths as well, and is something that the rest of the team is sorely lacking. At the time that he was traded, JT was the only Sox player with an OBP ov .350 or higher. As much as I don't like players who are too fragile to do anything other than DH, I'd love to have Thome and his really solid OBP back again in 2010.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Sep 6, 2009 -> 08:56 PM) I actually think Rios can be great bargain. Even with career lows in terms of AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS this season weighing his numbers down, Rios is still a career .282/.332/.447/.778 hitter. All his current numbers are waaay below those figures (.250/.298/.404/.702) and if he can just get back to his career lines, as a very good defensive CF with speed on the basepaths, and with a propensity for making a lot of contact (his Sox K numbers are also waaaay out of line for a healthy player with his track record), then he is definitely worth his contract IMO. Beyond that, he has the potential to be worth a lot more, and his deal takes him right through his prime. I disagree. Even at his career numbers (which is expect him to hit around next year), Rios at $10M/year is still way overpaid in this economy. That's why the Ricciardi was so desperate to get rid of him and that's why all of the teams who had waiver priority over the Sox took a pass on him. That said, I'm not saying that Kenny made a mistake in picking him up. The Sox certainly had/have circumstances that arguably justified over-paying Rios. I agree with this. The Sox don't need a 3B, Rios is much better in CF than Figgins, Figgins loses about half of his value if he can't steal 40+ bases a year, and Figgins has been injured a lot over the past couple of years. I'd like him for 4/20 or 4/25 because he'd be a really nice leadoff hitter, but 4/40 is ridiculous, especially considering that he wouldn't be a plus at all defensively on this team.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 6, 2009 -> 03:40 PM) See, I think this is a really interesting question. Are we rebuilding? By a lot of measures this was a rebuilding year, and a preliminary sketch for 2010 shows only two gaping holes to fill (Corner OF, Pen), at the same time, given the success we’ve experience with what I like to refer to as the, “rapid rebuild.” I don’t think having Hudson as our #5 is really out of the question anymore. Also, you know how I love my power arms, DA. The fact that Kenny added Peavy and Rios to the roster this summer clearly shows that we're not rebuilding in 2010. Garcia in the #5 spot and Hudson in the pen (at least, initially) makes sense on a number of levels. First of all, Freddy's arm strength has increased significantly since March and he's an effective starter right now. He's also an experienced starter who knows how to get major league hitters out, how to pitch out of jams, and and has a better psychological makeup than any rookie. Also, Freddy's option for next year is something like $2 million, which is a godsend for a team that has little to work with in the off-season. Hudson is doesn't have the arm conditioning to throw 200+ innings at this point. He's also incredibly young (22) and inexperienced, and throwing him into the rotation right off the bat isn't going to help his development. It makes a lot more sense, especially with our bullpen currently in shambles and in dire need of a couple cheap and effective arms, to start him out there and let him adjust to the majors. If Freddy continues to pitch well and Hudson lives up to his scouting reports, he very well may become our version of Joba Chaimberlain next year. If Freddy falters, Hudson can take over his spot, like Richard this summer. It's a very low-risk and low-cost scenario.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2009 -> 06:32 PM) Yup. And that's a fairly normal deal for a guy like him, although it's a little difficult to predict exactly with the economy. And that'd be a terrible deal for this team to give out. Especially considering that Kenny just picked up Rios' contract, which is even worse.

16. Freddy is dirt-cheap veteran talent for a team that's going to be stretched financially going into next season. 17. Freddy has a good history and relationship with the Sox, who are literally family to him. Good post.

Hudson's still pretty young and, from what I've read, has not exactly dominated AAA. They might want to give him some more time there early next year. I like Freddy as a place-holder.

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 5, 2009 -> 08:54 AM) Given options, I'd rather keep Beckham at 3B. Figgins is not really in KW's budget area. I agree. I don't think that Figgins is all that at 3B and Beckham has settled in there nicely. I'd put him in LF and move Quentin to RF. I think that $40 million is too much for a 31-year-old, injury-prone, high-OPB contact hitter with good speed, but no power. That said, if Kenny can get him for 4/25, I'll be the first to roll out the red carpet.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 03:51 PM) If given the choice, I'd probably go with the prospects and reclamation projects because at least if you go that route you can cut or trade unproductive pieces, whereas another Linebrink-type contact or Tony Pena deal could really bog this team down, and for more than just one year. I agree. If money is really tight, I probably go that route and give Thornton a shot at closing. If the Sox are in contention and the bullpen isn't getting it done, I trade for proven talent mid-season. QUOTE (beck72 @ Sep 5, 2009 -> 06:39 AM) I didn't see any mention of this in any threads, but I thought I would put it here. If the sox are intent on signing Chone Figgins, [which ESPN Insider is reporting, http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/ru...atures%2frumors ] it would have to be to play 3b. It would make a ton of sense to get Figgins for 3b and the top of the order so the sox can add young players like Flowers, Beckham, and Jordan Danks to the everyday lineup in 2010 and 2011. If that’s the case, the sox then would probably have to do a few things: 1] trade Alexei for some good talent—at least a young OFer and a Pitcher who could play in 2010. Say to Boston for OF Josh Reddick and a pitcher, prob. a bullpen arm. Reddick could then compete for the RF job, along with Jordan Danks and Mark Kotsay; both Reddick and Danks would likely need more time in the minors, so Kotsay could start the year in RF, and eventually be replaced by one of those two. I would've given my left nut for Figgins four years ago. He'll be on the wrong side of 30 next year and will begin to lose effectiveness as a base-stealer (he somewhat has already), so I'm not sure that I'd want to sign him as a FA. I suppose that it depends on how high the bidding war gets. He would be able to fill the chronic need as a leadoff hitter, but he'd also likely preclude us form signing another power bat to replace Thome. With JD almost certainly gone, Paulie on his way out, and Quentin's health always a question mark, I don't know if I want to dump a lot of money onto a player with a career .390 SLG. Especially after all of the money that Kenny spent on Rios. As hypocritical as it sounds coming out of my keyboard, the Sox are going to need another power-hitting station-to-station guy. As for Alexei, I realize that the Sox could probably get a lot for him right now because of his favorable contract. But with Danks and Floyd relatively affordable for the next couple of years and under team control, and Mark under contract for two more years, I don't think that you trade Alexei for prospects at this point. Especially after trading for Peavy. If you want to win now, Alexei gives you some really good bang for the buck.

I'd be more than happy to bring Thome back for one more year at DH. That said, we're ultimately going to need a DH who can play 1B, RF, or some other position once a week. Somebody like Adam Dunn would be a good long-term solution.

As much as I like Felix, when you already have four really good starting pitchers and serious problems in the middle of your lineup and bullpen, spending on another starting pitcher isn't a very good idea. That said, I'll gladly invite Freddy to ST to compete for the #5 spot. Dude's gettin' it done with the upper 80s fastball and the offspeed stuff.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 02:28 PM) our pen has ben bad good bad good bad good every year. It's going to be a crap shoot no matter. Thornton can do it. He's cheaper. We can get other pieces. This would be doable if Kenny could get a LOOGY and another middle reliever in exchange for Bobby's rights. I still don't think that Thornton has the offspeed stuff to be a good closer, but I don't see any other way. And I'd take my chances with him over somebody like Kerry Wood or Kevin Gregg.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 01:41 PM) The arb amounts due to CQ and Danks are hard to figure because they depend on so many things, but I could see extensions for both that would negate the arb process. Danks is probably glad he didn't sign the deal offered to him, but CQ could be a different story. And I wouldn't be shocked to see Bobby Jenks traded either, in fact I'd probably be more shocked to see Paulie traded than Jenks. We have to see what the Sox are planning on doing and where they'll be at financially. If they had been figuring on bringing Dye back when they added Rios and Peavy, but have since decided to let him go, then that should be another $12M or so available. Another factor is where we finish. If we finish with one of the 15 worst records then we almost HAVE to sign a Type A free agent to take advantage of that, because then we'd be getting a top player for a 2nd round pick only. IIRC, the Sox are contractually locked into paying $67 million next year, which doesn't include the arbitration players. I don't know what their payroll limit will be next year but, given that they shed payroll last season to get under $100 million and the still-bad economy, I have a tough time seeing them going over $95 million. Even $90 million might be stretching it. If CQ and Danks cost $10 million combined, they're not going to have much left over to round out their roster. And there are going to be a lot of attrition-generated holes to fill. I agree that there's a good chance that Jenks is dealt, as he'll most likely command about $7 million next year. But the problem with this is that Thornton is the only other reliable pitcher in the bullpen and, after dealing both Poreda and Richard, we have zero in-house options. So not only will the Sox need to add middle relievers, but they'll need to spend on another closer to replace Jenks (I don't think that Thornton will be a closer). Proven veteran closers aren't cheap and, contrary to what some people believe, it's difficult to go cheap at this position when you have squat in your farm system. It almost seems like it's better to over-pay Jenks for one more year, and maybe cut Paulie. It seems like a real waste to have a bad-ass rotation and a bullpen that will lose games for them. But if you cut Paulie, you're relying on Quentin to stay healthy for a full season and you're relying very heavily on Beckham and Rios to carry the offense. Either way, you're in trouble and you're basically wasting an opportunity to run for very-good-to-dominant starting pitchers out there. So who knows... maybe Kenny will exceed $100 million for one more year, and risk going into the red.

Thoughts and prayers go out to Ernie and his family.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 08:57 AM) Please for God's sake don't make Rios in to a corner OF by default. He belongs in CF until he proves he can't take it. Absolutely. Kenny didn't over-pay Rios to play a corner OF position.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Sep 3, 2009 -> 07:56 PM) Offseason needs IMO, in no particular order: 1. Pick up a lead-off hitter if we can find something that makes sense (if Figgins wants 4+ years then no Figgins) 2. Get a big lefty bat in the middle of the lineup 3. Shore up the OF defense by adding an above-average defensive RF, or else add a CF with Rios shifting to RF 4. Pick up a right-handed setup man to replace Dotel 5. Find a second lefty reliever with good enough stuff to pitch in the Majors I'd love for all of this to happen, but it's going to cost close to $25 million. And that's in addition to the $15 million or so that we'll be shelling out in arbitration to Quentin, Danks, and Jenks. Kenny needs to make the bullpen a priority. If there's any financial flexibility left over, a left-handed power hitter would be priority #2. Realistically, I don't think that they'll be able to afford any more big-contract impact players (like Figgins).

Rios is obviously a gamble with that contract. That said, I'd rather take my chances with him in 2011, 2012, and 2013 than Paulie. The way I look at this is that the Sox have an aging lineup that is quickly falling apart, and Kenny felt the need to add youth. He tried last year with Swisher, but that didn't work out. Needing somebody capable of filling the gaping void in CF, he went ahead and over-paid for Rios. I may not have pulled the trigger if I were in his position, but he has a better sense of what will be available this winter on the FA market than I do.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 3, 2009 -> 02:13 PM) Pierre is worth that money almost based on baserunning alone. And I would personally have no problem with that deal either, as it gives Danks a full year in AA and AAA before being ready for the show. This is assuming an outfield alignment left to right of Pierre-Rios-Quentin. That is actually the foundation of a good defensive outfield. Pierre's having a nice season with the bat, but he'll be 33 next year, he can't steal 40+ bases a season anymore, he's averaged a .708 OPS over the past three years, and his defense is mediocre. He's basically Pods with a $10 million/year salary. I'll take the Pods on our roster for about 1/5 of that. Linebrink pitched poorly down the stretch last year because he was injured. He's pitching poorly now because he can't locate his offspeed stuff, not because he's "out of ammo." Those two situations aren't related at all, and don't give us any indication of how he'll pitch next season. If our bullpen was stocked with solid arms and we didn't have Rios or Peavy on our roster, I might agree with you. But we need a stronger bullpen more than we need a $10 million Pods.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 3, 2009 -> 10:37 AM) One of the better ideas I saw regarding Linebrink was about a month ago when Fathom suggested maybe trading Linebrink to the Dodgers for Juan Pierre. Pierre's contract runs through 2011 and he is owed $10 million in 10' and $8.5 million in 11'. Linebrink is also signed through 2011', and is owed $5 and $5.5 million respectively in 2010 and 2011. If you traded Pierre for Linebrink, you'd essentially be taking on $7 million and getting rid of Linebrink. The problem with that is you could probably just take that $7 million, resign Podsednik to a 2 year deal, and keep Linebrink. While many of you would probably rather have him gone, I'd probably rather have him around, all things considered, on the chance that he rediscovers his breaking stuff. I think the difference between Pierre and Podsednik comes down to defense, where Pierre holds a clear edge, but the money being relatively equal, I would rather have Pods and Linebrink rather than just Pierre. Even if Pods reverts to sucking again next year, I'd still rather stick with Linebrink. He's healthy and could easily revert to his early 2008 form. And our bullpen is in awful, awful shape. Plus, there may be a financial need to deal Jenks this winter, which would make our bullpen situation even worse.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 3, 2009 -> 10:23 AM) All I'm saying is this year's record should not surprise anyone. There were many publications that thought it would be even worse. Its not that great of a team. Isn't it KW's responsibilty to field the best team possible? Didn't he think he had a WS contender? If he did, he was pretty wrong, wouldn't you agree? Wouldn't you agree that it's also Kenny's job to sell his teams to the public? Obviously, he can't be candidly honest about his team's flaws without jeopardizing his organization's bottom line. It was reasonable to think that he could've won the AL Central with this team. It wasn't that different than last year's team, and the flaws that they did have were addressed by Peavy and Rios down the stretch.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 3, 2009 -> 06:39 AM) As I pointed out, Quentin was hurt, something that shouldn't shock anyone. Dye probably should have been an all star but faded. Guess who faded last year as well? Linebrink was horrid after his injury last year. What do you expect this year? How has Dotel not pitched to expectations? What exactly were you expecting? The game is getting younger. I read somewhere where only 4 non DHs 36 years old or older will have enough AB to qualify for a batting title. Until a week ago, the White Sox were scoring more than 5 runs a game in August. When the team is constructed as it is, and we have seen it for years now, it is prone to long stretches of little scoring. Why should anyone be surprised? We have seen it for many, many years including 2005. Beckham struggling killed this team. I'm not trying to single him out, he's been great and he's a rookie so he will have more struggles than he will in the future. He's one guy as good as he is, who will only get better. Unlike so many White Sox supposed phemons, he knows how to play baseball. He's the one guy who can keep them out of something as prolonged. Once the heart of the order runs its course and is replaced with younger, swifter, players, and it doesn't always take at least 3 hits to score some of them from first, while it might not be as potent when everything is clicking, the offense will be more consistent. So, are you arguing that Kenny shouldn't have signed Konerko, Dye, or Contreras to extensions back in 2005, 2007, and 2006, respectively? Because, you know, they were probably going to peter out in 2009? Should Kenny have taken a pass on Linebrink and Dotel after 2007, and given the heap of dung that comprised the 2007 bullpen a chance to develop and shine in 2009? You can complain all you want in hindsight, but any team built around veterans on the other side of 30 will decline at some point. By acquiring these guys, the Sox had a window of opportunity from '06-'08, and it's apparently shut now. But at least this team had a chance, and actually played well for two of those four years. I'll take that approach over the Ron "The Kids Can Play" Schueler approach any day. I agree that this team needs to get younger. But you're going to have down years when your veterans reach their mid-30's after giving you that window of opportunity to win. Since MLB contracts are guaranteed, it's literally impossible to put an optimal team on the field every year.