WCSox

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 10:00 AM) I really think he needs to throw the change-up more often to lefties. He needs to throw it more in general. That late movement is Santana-like.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 09:31 AM) He threw it all the time with 2 strikes in 2005. His hook is a lot less effective now because hitters don't have to start their swing as fast with the fastball coming in at a more hittable speed. My mistake.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 09:23 AM) True, but back then, as long as the fastball was near the strike zone, guys were swinging at it. Then all he had to do is throw the hook anywhere, and those guys would basically be gone. My memory may be failing me, but I don't recall Bobby throwing that hook very often in 2005. I didn't see it until 2006, after he changed his mechanics and was topping out at 96-97. His hook is worthless if he can't throw it over the plate. Hitters will sit on his fastball.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 09:14 AM) Regardless though, it's clear as day, even though there will be people who still argue to this day, Bobby throwing 100mph with the mean hook, is better than the Bobby with 93mph fastball with a slider, curve, and two seamer. I don't even care anymore if it's about Bobby being able to throw 100mph, or Coop just telling him not to throw 100mph. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that Bobby can throw 100 mph without changing the mechanics necessary to throw that hook for strikes. If he could, he'd probably be doing it right now.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:56 AM) Quite frankly, right now it's Thornton next in line. But that also means we'd be down to 0 situational lefties in the pen currently. It could be Poreda, although he's far from a proven commodity. Richard also comes to mind, but I see him as an eventual 5th starter. Kenny might have to tap into free agency for a LOOGY.

QUOTE (hogan873 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:30 AM) Thanks for the info. I assumed that Coop had something to do with it. I've seen Bobby very effective with his slider (the last K on Monday night), and his fastball has shown some great movement. I hope that he can get command of his stuff. If he does and becomes lights-out, he could bring the Sox a good return in a trade...which I assume will happen. I've been against trading Jenks for the past couple of seasons, but am beginning to open up to the idea of putting him on the block this off-season (and not just because he's pitched poorly this month). He's getting expensive and, frankly, he isn't an elite closer. He's definitely a very good closer, but not an irreplaceable Rivera- or Nathan-type talent. If the Sox are going into a retooling movement next year (heck, they've already started this year), getting some high-tier prospects and shedding payroll may very well pay off down the road. And it pains me to say this, because I have nothing but respect for the guy. Doing what he did as a rookie in the 2005 playoffs takes some serious stones, and I'll forever be indebted to him for that. But dealing him at some point in the not-too-distant future is probably what's best for the team.

QUOTE (hogan873 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:17 AM) I don't think we can compare the Bobby Jenks of 2005 with the Bobby Jenks of 2009 (aside from the chin hairs). However, I see him throwing more secondary pitches now than before. He used to be money with the heat and then the nasty hook. I wonder if his use of more secondary pitches has hurt him. I suppose the days of 98-100 mph fastballs are over, and maybe that's why he needs the slider and change. Watching him, though, I just don't think he has the confidence in his stuff he used to. Coop changed Jenks' mechanics after 2005 to put less stress on his surgically-repaired elbow and to allow him to throw those secondary pitches effectively. Jenks throwing 94-96 and being able to locate the hook is a lot more effective than Jenks throwing nothing but fastballs at 98-100. And Jenks able to throw the mid-90s four-seamer, hook, slider, and that change with late movement would be unhittable if he had command of all four.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 06:07 AM) I like McDowell, too. Always have. Especially after he flipped off the Yankee fans. But I think Ozzie saw this as a chance to tell Richard "Job well done, son." and it was the right move. Agreed. I wouldn't have gone ballistic on Ozzie if he had let Richard pitch the 9th (although I would've disagreed). But I trust that Ozzie knows his pitchers better than Black Jack. For all we know, Richard may have indicated to Ozzie that his arm was fatigued when he returned to the dugout. For all of the well-deserved criticism of Ozzie's handling of Anderson, his handling of young pitchers has been second-to-none.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 10:18 PM) Ozzie is the manager, but many people, not only myself, question his ability to develop young baseball players. Ozzie did a hell of a job of developing Garland, Jenks, Danks, and Floyd. Yeah, join the club. But we're talking about young pitchers here, and he's been wildly-successful in that regard.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 10:01 PM) Nope, not really puzzled, I know why he was taken out, because of a "high" pitch count. That was only part of it. Ozzie wanted to give him a chance to leave the game on a high note, and to earn a well-deserved W. It's part of Richard's development. QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 10:01 PM) Also, the confidence talk is overrated. Even if does come in, give up a base hit to the first batter and then get taken out, and Jenks still blows it, if Richard has his confidence hurt, he's way too fragile to begin with. The truth is that all young players have a certain degree of "fragility" that is overcome over time with confidence obtained through success at the Major League level. You can choose to dismiss that fact if you wish, but keep in mind that people who have been watching/playing sports a lot longer than you disagree with you. Ozzie certainly disagrees with you, and he knows a hell of a lot more about managing and developing young baseball players than anybody here.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 09:40 PM) Here comes the age argument. Yeah, I'm 18, but that doesn't mean I'm some novice. My whole life has been baseball (and football). I think I know a thing or two. If you don't want age brought into the discussion, don't make remarks like, "As a former player..." It's not like you have any special advanced baseball experience or insight that others here are lacking. The vast majority of people here also played Little League and high school ball. I'm sure that you know a fair share about baseball, but the fact that you're still puzzled as to why Richard was removed in the 8th after throwing a 116-pitch gem suggests that you don't know much about handling players. These are real people, not fantasy or video game players. Instilling confidence in young players and protecting their arms are important to their development. There's a reason why Ozzie has a lot more success with young pitchers than people like Dusty Baker and Jerry Manuel. Apparently you haven't read my other posts... QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 09:13 PM) That's fair enough, but there's also an unwritten rule that established closers with wildly-successful track records close games, no matter how much of a funk they're in at that point... He got squeezed at least three times tonight, but I completely agree. That's why he's getting paid millions now. I tend to respond well to posters who don't try to shove their opinions down my throat.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:55 PM) The first couple hitters last night his stuff looked sick. Then he lost everything. I have no idea what is wrong with him but it almost has to be mental because he's gone out there and gotten the job done against equally tough teams with less stuff than he had last night. His stuff last night was indeed sick at times... just inconsistent. He was throwing four pitches (four-seamer, hook, slider, and that change with late movement) for strikes before losing command, and then regaining it. I imagine that he'll work through the command issues.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 09:19 PM) Wow, good argument. Yeah, I'm an idiot because I don't agree with the majority on here. Thanks. No, nobody called you an "idiot." You just need to realize that being an 18-year-old former Little Leaguer doesn't make you an expert in handling pitching staffs. Everybody has opinions, but it's not wise to argue them vehemently (with poor supporting evidence, to boot) in the faces of people who've been watching (and possibly playing) baseball a heck of a lot longer than you have. You're not even considering opposing opinions. You're just arguing for the sake or arguing at this point.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 09:14 PM) So what, you telling me his arm isn't conditioned enough to throw more than 120 pitches in one start after 3 months of starting? I'm sorry, I don't see it. Yeah, cause that Buehrle comparison really relates to what I was talking about! And did I ever say anything about having Richard go out there and get rocked? No, if he doesn't look good after the first batter take him out. And please tell me how 10 more pitches would blow out his elbow. Please oh please tell me. Please stop embarrassing yourself. Nobody in this thread agrees with you, and you're beginning to sound like one of the people who irrationally scream at Chris Rongey during the post-game show.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 09:01 PM) Tampa Bay spent 8 innings flailing at left handed pitching and hard fastballs inside all night, Jenks threw almost 30 pitches last night, and I think most people could see what happened in the 9th tonight coming. That's fair enough, but there's also an unwritten rule that established closers with wildly-successful track records close games, no matter how much of a funk they're in at that point. He got squeezed at least three times tonight, but I completely agree. That's why he's getting paid millions now.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:54 PM) Fail at what? Is that the only reply you have? Good one. There's a reason why young pitchers who have had a rough time in the bigs and have surpassed 130 IP/season ONCE in their minor-league careers, are taken out after 116 pitches during a rare phenomenal start. Since you apparently know everything about baseball, I'll let you figure it out. And if you blew the lead (or your elbow), you'd feel like complete crap afterwards. I'll bet that Mark Buehrle would volunteer go another 9 innings on one day's rest. But that doesn't make it a good idea.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:49 PM) It should have been Thornton in the 9th tonight, and I actually thought it was a no brainer. However, when it gets to Bobby and we lose, I have a hard time blaming Ozzie, but after tonight, that might change. Bobby might rebound, but the unconditional trust I have had in him since he came up in 2005 is now gone. You just can't fully trust him anymore with the stuff he has, which is nowhere near what it was. Jenks is "the man" in the bullpen. With years of very-good-to-dominant pitching under his belt, he's earned the right to close games, and it's going to take several more blown saves for that to change.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:43 PM) Also, his arm is unconditioned? He's been starting for what, 3 months now? If his arm isn't conditioned, he shouldn't be starting right now. FAIL You, as a former Little League/high school player, know how to handle a pitching staff better than Ozzie? That's pretty funny.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:34 PM) Are you serious? I'm sure because Clayton threw more than 100 pitches in a game, his arm would fall off. Give me a break dude. He can handle 116, but 126 is too much, especially for a 25 year old pitcher? Not to mention he's coming off a nice long rest and hasn't had a long workload at all this season. Get real. No, you need to "get real." Richard had been sucking ass for the past month, and responded with a brilliant 8-inning outing. At that point, you put him in a position to win the game. You don't let him go out in the 9th to lose it due to fatigue, or put undue stress on his unconditioned arm. If you can't trust an established, high-tier closer to shut the door in the 9th, you need to look for another closer.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:31 PM) And when Richard went down for Tommy John surgery in 3 weeks, everyone would be calling for Ozzie's head for ruining a young starter. And if either Jenks or Richard struck out the side in the 9th this evening, somebody at Soxtalk would find something else to complain about.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:23 PM) It really is. Its almost makes one embarrassed to be a human. I wish they would limit call in shows, and perhaps do a better job of screening the callers. Some of these guys................there is no way they should be allowed to be on the air. Indeed, the term "inhumanly stupid" comes to mind. These people are lucky that they don't live in a place like China, as they'd make a great case for forced sterilization.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:21 PM) Can't argue with that. Hopefully Bobby is just having a bad week or two. He's usually pretty damn good. Scary about Danks' blister. I'm more afraid of Jenks' WHIP. Danks doesn't seem to have a Jeremy Affeldt-like habitual blister problem.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 08:16 PM) Bringing Jenks in there. Rongy's show is a frightening reminder of how uninformed and intellectually-deficient most of America is.

QUOTE (PlunketChris @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 07:57 PM) Sorry, don't mean to bring any positive vibes to the board but Clayton pitched really well. That gives me a whole mess of hope for his future, both this season and beyond.. Back to your pessimistic comments about the bullpen/team. C'mon, man! Don't you know how things are done here? Get with the program!

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 07:54 PM) The good news right now is...the bottom of our order is giving us some balance. Last couple years, it's been either those 3 or nothing. Except for 2007, when it was just "nothing" through the entire lineup. Agreed that the balance (stemming from the better-than-expected hitting from Beckham and Pods) is a break from the recent past. I'm still pretty excited about this squad. And I'm even more encouraged when I watch Richard go out and dominate a very good team.