Lillian

QUOTE (Cali @ Jan 30, 2013 -> 11:29 PM) I do agree a middle of the order lefty impact bat would be nice, but really, is ONE more lefty in the lineup really gonna make that much of a difference? Even if it was Hamilton he's still one guy. Paulie, Rios, Flowers, Beckham, Viciedo, Ramirez and Keppinger are all still righties, against all those other righty pitchers in the Central. s*** if Robin is gonna be pitching this pipe dream of players striking out less and making more contact from players who strike out a lot and don't put the ball into play, why not just try and preach hitting righties better too? All three have an equally low chance of happening based on the personnel. You may be on to something. The Sox could reap significant benefits by concentrating on a better approach against the right handed starters, who dominated most of their lineup. I hope that they follow that suggestion, and that the Sox hitters respond. Do you have any particular suggestions? I like the idea of thinking up the middle versus hard throwing right handers like Verlander and Scherzer. Or even better, why not think taking the fast ball to the opposite field? That allows the hitter more time to commit, and if he is offered an offspeed pitch, he won't be out in front, as he would be if he were anticipating the fast ball. By simply not trying to pull ever pitch, our existing lineup might have a better chance at success.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 29, 2013 -> 08:16 AM) Well then it's even more impressive that they finished over .500 against the division last year. Yes, but the Sox faired very badly versus both the Royals and the Tigers. And they had A. J.'s left handed bat.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 29, 2013 -> 08:11 AM) What good left handed middle of the order bat is available? What are you going to give up? Where are you going to put him? Markakis doesn't count because the Orioles are not going to move him. I don't propose to have the solution. It might be constructive to start by identifying the problem. Do you agree that the absence of another left handed impact bat is the highest priority? If you agree, then you tell us. How can the Sox acquire such a hitter?

You can talk about contact vs. power, increasing OBP, or any other nuance of hitting. The Sox play almost half of their games against their division rivals, and they are not built to beat those teams. I’ve discussed how well the Detroit starters handled right handed hitters last year. The simple, unavoidable truth is that the rosters of Chicago’s A. L. Central opponents are comprised almost entirely of right handed starting pitchers. The two notable exceptions being Bruce Chen and Scott Diamond, both of whom were actually more effective against right handed hitters last year. This is just one more reason that should emphasize the need for the Sox to add a middle of the order left handed bat.

Some of you have suggested that the sample size of the Sox hitters versus the Tiger pitchers is too small. Here are their entire season's split stats for their starters last year: Scherzer VS RHP AVG .201 OBP .244 SLG .343 VS. LHB .292 .366 .465 D. Fister VS RHP AVG .220 OBP.297 SLG .310 VS LHB .270 .300 .434 Porcello VS RHP AVG .294 OBP .322 SLG .403 VS LHB .325 .381 .503 Sanchez VS RHP AVG .291OBP .324 SLG .473 VS LHB .243 .299 .347 Verlander VS RHP AVG .222OBP .278SLG .315 VS LHB .213 .264 .344 Except for Verlander, against whom the Sox have actually faired pretty well in recent years, the other RHP have been much better vs. right handed hitters. Sanchez only pitched part of the season with Detroit, and is new to the A. L. However, his numbers were better vs. LH batters. The data seems to support the idea that a predominantly right handed line up is not likely to fair well against Tiger starters.

I don't know how that thread got revived. I didn't post anything on it today. It's a mystery. Sorry.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Apr 18, 2012 -> 05:13 AM) I keep seeing posts recommending benching this guy, and calling up that guy, and platooning these guys. I'm as frustrated as the next guy with the way this team is hitting (or not hitting). But platooning Morel and McPherson or Dunn and Lillibridge or Fat Guy #1 and Skinny Guy #3 is not going to happen. Morel should be given a chance but lower in the lineup. Beckham might need a AAA stint. Dunn needs to just start hitting the damn ball, I don't care if it's mental or physical or spiritual. He's gotta get his s*** together. Someone else mentioned that benching the likes of Rios and Dunn does nothing, and I agree. There is absolutely zero chance anyone will trade for either of them if they spend 50% of their time warming a corner of the bench. There will at least be a slight chance if they play most of the time and actually start hitting the ball a bit. I'm officially concerned about this season now, and I think that's only because I had higher hopes than a lot of people. But I keep telling myself that it's been 10 games. 152 more to go. I just hope in a month we're not saying the same things about the hitting on this team. Because by then it will most likely be very concerning.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Jan 20, 2013 -> 12:33 PM) Quite a large conclusion to jump to working with small sample sizes. Using a similarly small sample, it seems Hahn has already signed that left-handed, middle of the order, "Tiger Slayer". In 35 career games, his line against the Tigers is .329/.380/.562. A .941 OPS. And he didn't cost much more than the league minimum! Career numbers are not relevant. However, the last couple of seasons, provide some indication of how well a given hitter, who has played a full season vs a division rival, might be expected to perform.

Of course, this isn't going to be easy. However, getting a left handed hitter, and one who can hit the Tiger's starting RHP has to be the goal. The Sox have no chance to compete with Detroit with the kind of offensive numbers they put up last year. No, I wouldn't trade Sale for Markakis, but I'd consider giving up something significant to get someone of his caliber.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 20, 2013 -> 11:14 AM) Obviously it can't just be the handedness of the batter, look at Pierzynski and De Aza, they did decent but they're not going up nearly as much as the others are going down. Highly doubtful Markakis is available. By all accounts the Orioles ownership just loves him. Of course, I'm sure they'd happily give him up for Sale, but even if Viciedo for Markakis was a good swap for both teams, I doubt their ownership would allow it. He's in the same mode as Brian Roberts was, where they wouldn't trade him for the longest time...except now they actually made the playoffs last year, so they have even less reason to move him. I agree that it isn't merely a matter of from which side of the plate the "Tiger slayer" hits. However, wouldn't you agree that the Sox need another left handed, middle of the order hitter? Doesn't it also make sense that he should be someone who has demonstrated success against the Tiger's right handed starters?

The single biggest reason that the Sox didn't win the division last year was that they couldn't beat the Tigers in head to head competition. The Tigers have improved over last season, and have the same pitching staff. The following stats (AVG. OBP SLG) reflect the 2012 performance of Sox hitters, including those added and subtracted from last year's roster A. de Aza .224 .286 .362 Alex Rios .206 .254 .349 P Konerko .294 .329 .471 Pierzynski .267 .279 .433 D. Viciedo .260 .302 .460 A. Dunn .216 .255 .451 Ramirez .227 .250 .318 K.Youklis .115 .194 .328 Beckham .205 .340 .455 Keppinger .158 .200 .316 It's pretty obvious that the Sox can't hit Tiger pitching. I wonder if it's at least in part because all of Detroit's starters are right handed. As you're probably tired of hearing me say; the Sox continue to lack a middle of the order left handed bat, . I'd suggest that we all focus our speculation about roster changes on the task of acquiring another left handed bat, for the middle of the order, preferably one who has a history of hitting Tiger pitching. More importantly, I hope that is what R. Hahn is doing. He has stated several times, that acquiring an impact left handed bat is one of his highest priorities. I still think that the Sox should be trying to trade for someone like Markakis. Here are his stats vs. the Tigers, for the last 2 years: 2012 .385 .448 .654 2011 .343 .385 .486 Here's what Kubel did in 2011, his last year in the AL: .239 .364 .391 It doesn't appear that he's the answer. Someone, please suggest a feasible trade to acquire a "Tiger Slayer".

All of this discussion regarding Dunn batting 3RD can be settled by simply comparing our #3 and the Tiger's #3. Maybe the best place for Dunn is 3RD, but that just demonstrates how much better their lineup is. Dunn is no Miguel Cabrera.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 8, 2013 -> 08:12 PM) That's all fine and good, but trading Viciedo and Floyd isn't going be enough to get it done. It probably has to be one of those Nick Swisher trades multi-player trades where you're including someone like Trayce Thompson and probably Jones or Reed as well. Of course, it depends on which player we're targeting, but with the Viciedo example, it would be LF. How many Top 3-5/true impact corner outfielders hit LH and are on the the market now? And would any of them be close to affordable for the Sox? That had to be the prime consideration with passing on Josh Hamilton, the risk/price tag. But if this LH hitter is in years 1-3, no team will trade him for less than a king's ransom, years 4-6 he becomes a lot more expensive and you're taking a huge risk of losing him before you get a full return on investment. For the White Sox, it has to be someone like a Cespedes, where they're not giving up talent or a draft pick, but rolling the dice with their international scouting. Who knows who, and how this will be accomplished, but I just can't believe that Hahn is going to let this team take the field without fulfilling his stated objective of acquiring a left handed bat, for the middle of the order. My only point was that it's premature to compare the Sox and Tiger lineups, because it is highly unlikely that you are looking at the final roster. If Hahn is unable to find that bat, I agree that the Sox have very little chance of competing with Detroit. I have said, all along, that Dunn cannot bat 3RD, and cannot be the only impact left handed bat on this team.

It will be very surprising if Hahn does not acquire a left handed, middle of the order bat. He is not going to let this team go into the season with Dunn as the only "impact" left handed bat, as previously discussed. I don't know who that hitter will replace, but I suspect that it might be Viciedo. If he acquires a decent LH hitter to bat 3RD, and moves Dunn down to 5TH or 6TH. the lineup could be pretty productive. To me the biggest wild card is still Beckham. If he were to finally realize his potential and again show the promise that he demonstrated his rookie year, the Sox could be among the top offenses in baseball. I know we've all been disappointed in Gordon for the last 3 years, but I think this might finally be the point where he figures it out. Imagine our offense with him putting up a line something like .285 35 doubles, 20 HR and a .350 OBP. If that were to happen, and the Sox found a good left handed hitter to bat 3RD, I don't think it would matter much how Flowers hits.

All of those statistics merely give me a headache. I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my mind around the virtue of having a guy who hits .200 and strikes out at least 200 times a season, batting 3RD. That is sure a far cry from Miguel Cabrera. Perhaps I'm completely off base, but intuitively, it just doesn't sound right to me.

I assume that Hahn is better focused on what needs to be done, than many on this board. His objective must be to not only acquire another LH hitter, but to get one who can hit in the middle of the order. If the Sox have to bat Dunn 3RD or 4TH, they are not going to be able to compete with that Tiger lineup. The Sox simply cannot have a guy with a .200 average and over 200 strike outs in the middle of their order, unless it's 5TH, and he follows some pretty good hitters, including at least one who bats from the left side. Is there anyone here who disagrees with that?

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Dec 30, 2012 -> 11:39 AM) A Kubel/Viciedo platoon could be intriguing if it only means giving up say Thornton and some mid level prospects.. Anything more than that? No thanks. Thank you, and I agree.

Kubel only makes sense if he is platooned with someone like Viciedo. He's not that good versus LHP. The important qualification is the ability to hit 3RD vs RHP. That has to be the number one objective, because Adam Dunn, and his .200 batting average, cannot bat 3RD or 4TH. Kubel isn't the strike out machine that Dunn is, and his OBP is respectable versus RHP. He would represent an improvement, but I'd rather see Ethier or Markakis. Of course, those guys may not be obtainable. If the Sox can get Kubel without giving up a piece of the present starting roster, I guess he'd do.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 22, 2012 -> 05:59 PM) You really like the idea of putting players in left that have never played the position before No, I don't like it, but I really didn't check to see if LaRoche had ever played the outfield. I'm just "grasping at straws", that's all. I guess hearing suggestions like obtaining Kubel for LF, made me panic. I'm getting pretty pessimistic about this team finding that middle of the order, left handed bat. You've all read that I'm dead set against Dunn batting any lower than 5TH, and he just may be back in the three hole this season. What a disaster?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 22, 2012 -> 05:03 PM) To fill that huge hole the Sox have at 1b-DH? I was thinking maybe he could play LF. I know that he's a gold glove first baseman, but have no idea if he could play LF.

Has anyone talked about acquiring Adam LaRoche? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nation...m-adam-laroche/

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Dec 22, 2012 -> 11:03 AM) Pathetic. Why is everybody in a hurry to trade Rios? At this point, he's our best player and his contract is fair to good. I agree entirely, and have been saying so ever since he abandoned that awful batting stance, and started playing up to his potential.

Markakis is the only Oriole who profiles as the kind of left handed hitter, for whom I think Hahn is searching. He's a similar hitter to Ethier, but a better defender. He would fill the need for a middle of the order, left handed bat, with a high OBP. I'd like to see a trade of Floyd and Viciedo for Markakis and a top right handed pitching prospect.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 18, 2012 -> 12:12 PM) Andre Ethier is supposedly available. The problem with him is for every positive there is a negative, although he probably would be pretty productive for a few years. As I said a couple of weeks ago, he's the guy I want. He kills right handed pitching, and he's not a one dimensional player. He gives you high average and OBP, plays good defense, and most importantly, he is that left handed bat that could be the number 3 hitter. I just can't accept Dunn in that spot. As it stands now, the 6, 7, 8 and 9 hitters are all coming of a season in which they had a sub .300 OBP vs. RHP. That is not going to cut it, and Dunn's .211 average in the middle of the order, even against RHP, doesn't help, despite all of the homers. The line up actually looks pretty good against lefties, but that is over shadowed by the lower half of the line up vs. righties, which is what you face most of the time. I wonder how much better Ethier's home run production would be at the Cell.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 01:02 PM) So you think Trumbo is just going to ride the bench now??? They may as well trade him for some pitching....like Gavin Floyd. EDIT: I suppose they could trade Bourjos instead, and rock a Trumbo-Trout-Hamilton OF. I'll simply repeat that the Sox are looking for a LH bat for the middle of the order. Trumbo is not left handed.