Lillian

This topic speaks volumes about the issue of accountability, which we've addressed in other threads. Where was the hitting coach, for the last 4 months? We could all see how terrible Rios' mechanics were, and the results provided pretty good evidence that our perceptions were valid. The coaching staff had to see the same thing. Why wouldn't they insist that Alex change his approach, or take a seat on the bench? And I don't mean for one game, but rather until he changed his approach. That would have been holding a player accountable, and not doing so demonstrates a lack of accountability on the part of the coaching staff, as well. Moreover, if Walker went to Ozzie and told him that Alex wouldn't follow his advice, and Ozzie continued to play him anyway, then he should have been held accountable. How do all of these professional baseball people let something like this go this long before somebody says; "hey, we've got to do something here"? The whole thing disgusts me, and really makes me lose confidence and interest in this organization. I'm ready for some changes. Fire somebody already!!!

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Aug 6, 2011 -> 09:43 PM) No. I still don't believe in De Aza. He is a perfectly capable 4th OF, and I'd like him to stay there, but I'd never want him in a starting position if I could help it. Well, I suspect de Aza will be the lead off hitter next year, replacing Pierre. I sure hope so, at least vs. RHP. He can do a lot more things than Juan.

Do those of you who asserted that de Aza was a AAAA player have a little different assessment yet? I love his hustle and the tools he brings to the game. He has always struck me as a guy who could play, if given a chance.

DUH!!!!!!!

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 06:17 PM) We should make a list of players who suddenly hit the brick wall and were terrible like Dunn. 1.) Steve Sax. 2.) Carlton Fisk suddenly couldn't catch the ball behind the plate and was finally done. Although to be fair he was probably 55 years old at the time. 3.) Dan Pasqua with the White Sox. 4.) Bobby Bonds with the White Sox. Those are my starters. Yes, but can you think of an instance where two players both completely forgot how to hit? All of those examples were guys way past their primes, except Sax. It is very rare, I'm sure.

All of your thoughtful comments are appreciated. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting that Dunn become a slap hitter. My point is that he is big enough and strong enough to hit home runs even if he were to cut down on the length of his swing. The reference to smaller players is simply to point out the fact that a short guy, with short arms, has an inherently shorter arc to his swing, and thus will be quicker owing to the shorter distance his bat travels through the arc of the swing. Given the same bat speed, his swing is quicker because the arc is shorter. I suppose that Dunn's homers wouldn't go quite as far with that approach, but they don't give extra points for distance, do they? Dunn has the power to cause what would be another player's fly out, to go over the fence. His first priority should be to do everything he can to make contact. The homers would come. Look at Konerko. He's not a huge man, but he is short and quick, and the results are very productive. It just seems foolish, and counter productive for a big man to take a big long swing. It isn't necessary, and it doesn't produce a better result, save the occasional tape measure home run.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 08:52 AM) If the PED's helped Bonds maintain bat speed, generate power, and improved vision/reaction time as he aged (and they did), then yes, they're very relevant in the discussion, because those are possible issues that Dunn may be dealing with. Yes, I agree. However, I maintain that if Bonds had also employed a long swing, that the result would not have been as positive. Moreover, Dunn is taller than Bonds, and therefore his swing is inherently longer, to begin with. Look fellas, I'm just seeking clarity here. 1) Is a shorter swing more effective or not? I believe that it is generally accepted that a shorter and quicker swing results in more contact. 2) Isn't the length of the swing determined in part by the length of the swing's arc? That is also not in dispute, as far as I know. 3) Does choking up on the bat also afford a hitter better bat control, resulting in more contact? 4) Shouldn't contact be the most important objective for a guy with issues regarding being able to put the bat on the ball? If the answer to these questions is yes, then I don't see how Dunn wouldn't benefit from such a change in his approach to hitting. One thing is certain. What he has been doing is not working well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 08:42 AM) Barry Bonds also was composed more of tetrahydrogestrinone than man. Is that really relevant in this discussion? I would contend that if Bonds had approached hitting in the same manner as Dunn, with a long swing, and long arc, that it would have produced a similarly ineffective result. Big strong guys can generate enough power. PEDS are not necessary to generate bat speed for a strong guy like Dunn. Wouldn't he benefit by being shorter and quicker with his swing? That is the question. If the answer is yes, then it follows that two of the ways to get shorter and quicker are to choke up and simultaneously reduce the length of the swing.

Barry Bonds choked up, and it didn't seem to stop him from hitting homers at a prodigious rate. Yes, Dunn has always used a long bat and held it at the knob. He has also always struck out at an extraordinarily high rate. My point is that big guys like him should want to make more contact, as their natural size and strength will result in lots of homers, if they can just connect with the ball. The ball can't leave the yard, if the hitter can't put the bat on it!!!!!!!!! If a little guy like Pedroia can hit the ball out, it hardly seems necessary for a guy Dunn's size to have such a long swing. Pedroia's success is in part attributable to the same principle. He is very short, and the arc of his swing is therefore correspondingly short. He can wait longer to recognize the pitch before commiting, because the arc of his swing is short.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 07:38 AM) If it were that easy, they could fix Gordon and Rios, too. 75% of it is confidence...his long swing and "slider speed bat" has always been there. Power hitters will never be comfortable choking up on the bat. Even singles hitters rarely choke up these days. And there's a larger issue. He's so far off the plate, he needs that bat length to reach the outer half. Now whether he should be so far off the plate...that's another issue altogether, but he obviously feels comfortable there compared to crowding the plate like Quentin does. I didn't say that "it was easy". I said; "it's obvious". The fact that players aren't "comfortable" doesn't invalidate the point. If you disagree, please explain where you think this analysis is wrong.

The physics of the swing are that the longer the arc of the swing, the longer it takes the bat to travel to and through the hitting zone. The length of the arc is determined in part by the length of the batter’s arms and the length of his bat. The longer his arms and his bat, the longer the arc. A tall player, with long arms, can reduce the length of the arc by choking up. Choking up also provides that added advantage of increasing the hitter’s control of the bat. A big strong guy like Dunn could choke up, reduce the length of the arc, increase his bat control, and still hit the ball a very long way. The greater number of times that a guy that big and strong can make contact, the greater the number of times a ball has a chance to leave the park. Why is this not obvious to baseball people? He should choke up, and then emulate Konerko’s short and quick swing.

When is the last time this happened to a franchise? I mean two key players going from good to absolutely horrible in the same season, without injuries? These are guys in their primes, with pretty good career numbers, who seem to have simply forgotten how to play the game. This has to be the most frustrating circumstance imagineable for them, management and the fans. It's one thing to lose a player to injury, but it's another altogether to suddenly lose two players to ineptitude. There's nothing unusual about a slump, and almost every player has them, sooner or later. But, can you call 4 months a slump?

The accountability issue is still the greatest concern for me. How can Rios still be on the field with his play and his attitude? The guy has a .244 OBP. How is that possible? De Aza has his second consecutive great season at AAA, gets called up, and hits a homer in his first game, a game in which practically no one else did anything offensively. The very next game Rios is back in CF and de Aza is on the bench, just because there was a LH starter for Boston. That is not my idea of accountability. I have no idea what the state of the Sox clubhouse is, but it probably isn't very good, and shouldn't be.

It won't be a disappointment to me if Quentin stays. I've always liked him, since the first time I saw him play in a Diamondbacks uniform vs. the Sox during Spring Training. The team could still become pretty good offensively with just a few in house changes. I'd love to see what the lineup would look like if de Aza led off and took over for Rios in CF. That would open a spot for Viciedo to replace Pierre in LF. That would only leave one hole in the lineup with Dunn at DH. I could be more optimistic about hoping for him to get back on track than I could ever be waiting for Pierre, Rios and Dunn to all get going. What is wrong with this lineup? CF de Aza SS Ramirez RF Quentin 1B Konerko DH Dunn Lf Viciedo C A. J. 2B Beckham 3B Morel When Vizquel plays vs some RH pitching, he bats in the 2 hole, and Ramirez moves down in the order Someone should DH for Dunn vs lefties. The point is that those changes could be better than any trades, and in this way the Sox wouldn't have to give up anyone except the guys we don't want, namely Pierre and Rios. Look, if you're not going to be able to unload Rios, just bench him and play someone who might perform. Who cares how much he's making? It doesn't add any significant payroll to play de Aza and Viciedo.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 07:52 AM) RBI is a team dependent stat. The Astros have deployed some of the worst lineups in baseball for quite some time now. Carlos has a little more power. Not much more. And you're seriously underestimating the difference in their defensive abilities. You could legitimately argue that Pence is the best defensive RF in the game. And now that he's not stuck in the baseball abyss of suckage that is Houston, his skills will be more on display for everybody to see. You make two very good points. I frankly, did not know that Pence is such an outstanding defensive Right Fielder. In any case, Pence has been traded, and Quentin is now probably the best available impact bat outfielder available, if he is indeed being dangled out there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 08:40 AM) There is no way they will exercise that option. Alex Rios jaked his way out of Toronto, and is now jaking it in Chicago. I know some team out there probably thinks they could have the perfect situation for him, but they aren't going to take on his contract to find out. If the Sox want to rid themselves of Alex Rios, they are going to have to still pay him a lot of money. I agree with you about Quentin and Pence. If I had my choice, I'd take Quentin myself. Way more potential at huge numbers. You may be right about not being able to find any takers for Rios and his contract. If you are, I can't see the sense in giving up another player and still paying Rios a significant portion of his contract, just to get him off the team. I'd rather they just didn't play him, than pay him to play for another team. Could he be sent to the Minors?

In his 1,633 AB with the Sox, Quentin has hit 103 homers. That is one homer in every 15.85 at bats. Add in his RBI totals and I think most would concede that Carlos is a legitimate slugger. Pence is a consistent 25 HR per season hitter. He's not a slugger.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 08:35 AM) And Hunter Pence plays good D, better OBP, better average, and is good for around 25 HR and 80 RBI. The big problem being Q's health. If he were consistently healthy, we'd get whatever we want for him. Hunter Pence's career OBP is .339 Carlos Quentin career OBP is .348

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 08:25 AM) If Nate McLouth's agent can get him a contract like Rios', I need to bring him with me to next review. The Braves have a club option at $10.65 Million for next year. If they want to keep him, that is indeed what it will cost. After that, who knows? Of course, the Braves can tell Pence and his agent that they don't want to exercise the option, and would prefer to buy him out for $1.25 million.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 06:42 AM) That's a great concept, but KW demanding that would either be laughed at or hung up on or both. Considering Rios contract and what Quentin will get in arbitration next year, there aren't a lot of teams, if any, willing to take on that kind of cash, especially considering what reasonably expected production you could expect. I love him, butCQ has his warts, and Rios is a dog. Well, maybe it's more feasible than would appear at first glance. Remember, McLouth will be a free agent at the end of the season, and the Braves would have to spend almost as much in exercising the 2012 option for $10.65 Million, as the $12 million owed Rios next year. In the meantime, the Braves would have their defensive replacement for McClouth while he's on the DL. When he comes back they could platoon him with Rios. Next year, their outfield could be pretty good with Heyward, Rios and Quentin. With the offensive production from the corners, they could get buy with Rios is CF. Hey, if they want Quentin, make them pay. Take Rios' contract and give us one really good pitching prospect. Otherwise, go ahead and pursue Coco Crisp. I don't see how that would make the Braves competitive in the N. L East, do you? Quentin is an impact bat, and that is what they need. I respectfully disagree with the comparisons to Hunter Pence in this thread. Hunter Pence is no Carlos Quentin. When TCQ is healthy, he is a 40 HR hitter and a big run producer.

I don't follow the Braves, however it looks like they could use help in both CF and one of the corner OF spots. Why not trade them Quentin, and Rios, for some really decent young pitching and one position prospect? If they want Quentin, they have to take Rios, who might even flourish in the N. L. At least he could be as good Coco Crisp, with a lot more upside. I'd hate to lose TCQ, but if it meant unloading Rios, it might be worth it. Maybe we could then use the money saved by shedding the Rios contract to buy Carlos back when he becomes a free agent. In the meantime, the outfield for 2012 would be Milledge, de Aza and Viciedo, with de Aza leading off. That is unless they acquire someone else. I could live with that. Anything would be better than watching Rios, with his lazy play and unorthodox mechanics at the plate. God, watching that stance at the plate is just maddening!!

QUOTE (Paulie4Pres @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 11:02 PM) How does acquiring Rasmus make this team better? Now, or in the future. Maybe it's just me, but Rasmus reminds me an awful lot of Rios, who I absolutely HATE. One good season does not a great player make. That's all he's had. One good season. His first season was MEH. This season is MEH. Have Sox fans not learned a f***ing thing about overpaying for flash in the pan players? What do you do with Rios, if you make this trade? Who sits? Adding Rasmus and keeping Rios does nothing to improve this team. Adding Rasmus only improves this team if he doesn't turn out to be Rios PART 2. I don't do this trade unless they want JUST Jackson. Thornton and Jackson? No, sorry. Get bent. The biggest problem with this team is the garbage player we have in CF right now. Get rid of him, somehow, anyhow, and we improve immediately. BRIAN ANDERSON would be an upgrade in CF right now. How pathetic is that? I agree with this post, entirely. The best thing the Sox can do to improve the very serious predicament in which they find themselves, is to get rid of Rios. I would rather K. W. use the trading chips he possesses to unload Rios. If someone wants Jackson and Thornton badly enough, they should have to agree to take Rios. This is a case of addition by subtraction. We don't need Cobly Rasmus nearly as much as we need to get rid of Rios, and his contract. I'd be perfectly happy to see what an outfield of Viciedo, de Aza and Quentin could do, and remember that we still have Millidge, who seems to be coming on strong. Such a move would leave the team with just one big underperforming bad contract in Adam Dunn. He has had a long enough and consistent enough career to justify having a little faith in his ability to ultimately produce. Moreover, Dunn doesn't need to hit 40 homers next year in order to provide value. He is, after all, a left handed bat who can provide a presence in the middle of the line up, something the Sox have lacked since Thome left. I would be satisfied if next year he hit .250 with 30 homers and an OBP north of .375.

As most of you know, promoting de Aza is one of my long held wishes for this "sinking ship". In fact, it's become almost a mantra with me. Therefore I'm completely in agreement with this thread. Moreover, if de Aza can prove that he can play at the Major League level, it solves next year's void regarding a lead off hitter. His numbers vs RHP are really impressive, as they were last season. Who knows, maybe he could even impress enough to convince management to dump Pierre now, rather than waiting for his contract to expire. He can play CF, and that's another plus. It means that you could try to dump the Rios contract, and still have room for both de Aza and Viciedo. I'd personally love to see de Aza in CF, leading off, with Quentin and Viciedo at the corners.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 17, 2011 -> 07:22 AM) I doubt it. The teams that usually take on money, Boston, is right up against the luxury tax and supposedly can't add payroll. The Yankees are over, so Rios contract would really cost them 150% of what they would be paying him. Thats about $19 million a year, plus if you want to keep Danks, he'll cost you the same or more. Due to sheer dollars, I don't think you could find a team who would take Rios or Dunn, if you just gave them John Danks to do so, much less give you anything for him, and certainly not for a 2 month rental of Edwin Jackson. The Sox are stuck with them. Hopefully, they will either come around, or Ozzie will move them down in the line up, or Ozzie will move them out of the line up, and if their performance ever improves to the point someone will take their contracts, KW needs to dump them immediately. Well, I guess it's hopeless, unless they wake up and start earning those contracts. Thanks for your thoughts, though futility never feels very good.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 17, 2011 -> 07:05 AM) That could be the highest priority, but it would be a waste of time. No one is going to take the Dunn or Rios contracts off your hands. I understand, and I agree that no one will simply take the contracts. That was my point. Wouldn't some team be willing to take those contracts if they could acquire Danks or Jackson?