Lillian

Thank you, "Whitesoxfan", for your thoughtful and well reasoned response. I understand that the Phillies love Brown. Why wouldn't they? However, they reportedly also like Quentin. They really need a right handed power hitting outfielder, who is ready to contribute this year. I think that if you include one other piece, the Phillies just might go for the deal I proposed. Quentin could realistically be expected to hit 30 to 35 homers, and drive in 80 to 100 runs. I doubt that the Phillies expect Brown to do that, at this stage of his career. So are you saying that you wouldn't like the trade of Quentin + another player for Blanton and Brown? Or, are you saying that the Phillies wouldn't make the trade?

Those who argue that we shouldn't trade any pitching have a very strong point. One area that the Sox could still improve, other than the bullpen, is left handed hitting. Our division is very heavily weighted with RHP. Unfortunately, our lineup is still heavily weighted with RH hitting. Quentin to the Yankees or Phillies, for a good left handed hitting outfielder would work for me. I still like the idea of Dominic Brown and Blanton for Quentin and someone who will not be counted on to contribute this year. The Phillies are obviously going for it with all of that terrific, expensive pitching. They still need a solid right handed hitting outfielder to replace Werth, and they need to dump Blanton's salary. We could use Blanton to fill out the rotation if we can find a taker for Floyd, or one of the other aforementioned starters. My question is whether Brown is really ready to contribute. Granderson is interesting, although you would hope that the Sox would get another piece in a Granderson for Quentin trade, especially given his salary. Not only is Brown, or Granderson a good fit, because they both hit from the left side, but they're also both plus defenders, and improving the outfield defense should be another priority. If the Sox could do the Blanton and Brown for Quentin + trade, then I like the idea of dealing Buerhle to the Yankees for Granderson. Blanton almost makes up for the loss of Buerhle, except for all of the intangibles that Buerhle brings. However, the salary relief probably offsets that. The Yankees need the pitching, and money never seems to matter much to them. The "fly in the ointment" here is that Mark would probably veto any trade to the Yankees. But I would sure love that outfield of Brown, Granderson and Rios, wouldn't you? Speed, defense, 2 out of 3 left handed hitters. Oh gosh, I forgot. Where would Juan play? Oh, how sad. Hey, the formula of stacking the lineup with left handed bats seems to work pretty well for the Twins. Let's face it, other than Dunn, the Sox don't have any dangerous left handed hitters. Moreover, there aren't any in our farm system who could contribute any time soon, with the possible exception of the newly acquired Dallas McPherson. However, who knows if he'll ever be healthy enough to have an impact.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 07:06 AM) I like your proposal. But I follow the Phillies quite extensively and from everything I've heard/read, Dominic Brown is essentially their Jason Heyward. The Phillies have been trading prospects at a furious pace the last few years. But Brown is still there. They wouldn't even include him in any package for Halladay. No way in hell they're trading him for CQ (though I'm sure they'd love to shed Blanton's salary). As far as MB to the Yankees, I don't see a match there. Granderson is notoriously worthless against LHP and is owed over $18 million the next two years. They're probably already regretting that trade. Gardner is one of the few quality, cost-controlled players they have. I doubt they would part for with him in any deal for Buehrle. Thanks for the response. Moreover, I just realized that the Yankees don't really have another outfielder to replace anyone currently in their outfield. I thought that Thames was still there, but it looks like it will be Granderson, Gardner and Swisher, with no one else really ready to help.

I think that these trade ideas have to be based upon a mutual need, and desire on the part of both teams. With that in mind, how about this idea floated by a poster on WSI?: Joe Blanton and his 2 yr. $ 17 mil. contract and Domomnic Brown for Carlos Quentin? The Phillies might actually go for that deal. They're looking for a Right handed power hitting outfielder, to replace Werth, and they want to dump Blanton's salary. However, which pitcher then gets traded, and for what? Now the Buerhle to the Yankees idea makes more sense. But maybe we take Granderson instead of Gardner. Granderson helps make up the loss of Quentin, better than Gardner would. Moreover, the Yankees would be much more likely to trade him than Gardner. Your outfield is Dominic Brown in LF, Granderson in CF, and Rios in RF. That is a great defensive outfield. Vs. LHP you could sit Granderson, put Viciedo in LF, Rios in CF and Brown in RF The savings on Quentin and Buerhle would pay for Granderson, Blanton and Brown, and leave a little money left over this year for a reliever or two.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 05:28 PM) No, I'd call his performance adequate. I'd call Carlos's disappointing, because I was hoping/expecting a ton more. Yes, I think that expresses my sentiment exactly. I continue to hope and expect "a ton more" from Quentin, who is five years younger than Pierre. Contrastly, I would expect Juan to be in decline as a result of losing a step with age, and his dependence upon speed. It's hard to imagine that he would do any better than his last seasons performance.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 03:13 PM) Again we go through this. OBP the last 2 years: Carlos Quentin: .323, .342. Career number; .347. Juan Pierre: .365, .341. Career number; .347. I don't really care about RBI's since those are a product of whether or not people are on base. There's a monstrous slugging difference between the two, and the 2008 version of Carlos Quentin had a massive OBP, but that version hasn't shown up any other year. Right now, there's no good reason to assume that Carlos Quentin will give you a better OBP than Juan Pierre. If you want to rip pierre, at least get the stats right. Yes, if you look at the last two years, you're right. However, he only played part time in '09, and if you go back to the 4 years prior to that, you get a completely different set of numbers. Playing pretty much full time, Pierre's OBP was consistently around .327. Watching him last year, I would guess that .327 is more like what we should expect next year. He had one insanely good month that brought his totals way up, but can you honestly say that you were favorably impressed the rest of the season? Quentin admittedly had a pretty bad year, and was hobbled with the plantar faciitis in '09, but we've seen what he is capable of doing, and I prefer that presence and potential. In any case, I didn't want to rehash any of this stuff. I was merely voicing my agreement with "Kenny Hates Pros".

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 02:55 PM) If we get a legit RF who can hit a bit then I don't even care. Believe me, I LOVE prototypical lead-off men, I really really do. But Pierre is NOT that. Of course in the real world the Sox would move Carlos if the choice were him or Pierre because that's the type of s*** they do. Again, I agree. How Pierre could ever be considered preferable to Quentin is beyond my comprehension. It's because many way over value stolen bases. I'll take the higher OBP, and the RBI production any time.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 02:44 PM) From a real simple and imperfect fan scouting perspective, CQ on defense is 1) not very baseball-smart, 2) gets bad reads a lot, 3) has very little closing or makeup speed, 4) can be aggressive in the field and will go all out on a play at times, 5) has a strong arm that can be accurate when he's throwing to the proper base. An arm alone is not enough to play RF. However, in a small park especially, playing LF gives the Sox at least the benefit of cutting down guys looking to take the extra base/score on somewhat shallow sac flies, so the huge loss in range is partly offset if nothing else. Ideally, since Ozzie rests his guys a lot, CQ would play LF normally but *always* DH when PK or Dunn get the day off. That would help minimize the damage he does defensively. Of course, anyone who DH's Omar Vizquel is liable to do really stupid things with Carlos. As long as Carlos is just being good, not even great, by working to minimize his OF time and keeping him in LF when he is out there, the bat will compensate for the loss of D IMO. The key is dumping Pierre or making him 4th OF while picking up a legit RF. Pierre shouldn't even be on this team IMO. He's a leftover from one of Kenny's worst offseasons ever. AMEN!!!! You knew that I would agree with you on Pierre. But then who would lead off?

In thinking more about choking up, it's not just a way to cut down on strike outs. The hitter also benefits by increasing the rate at which he can "square up" the ball, through better bat control. More line drives translate into more hits. In addition to affording better control, choking up also shortens the swing. It's too bad that the technique has all but disappeared.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 05:13 PM) The problem is...if he's already got a fairly quick bat, a lighter bat will translate to less power. Juan Pierre with less power. Think about that for a momen. Thanks for the comments on choking up. Those were some interesting points that some of you made. This board is indeed a pleasure.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 04:45 PM) I'm guessing you will be the happiest Sox fan on the planet once Juan Pierre's White Sox tour of duty is over. You may be right about that. In the meantime, will someone explain to me why a guy like Pierre doesn't choke up on the bat? As long as he can't drive a ball into the gap, why not choke up and just try to make contact. He's not a bad contact hitter, but he would probably be better if his hands weren't down on the knob. I've never understood why guys with no power don't choke up. I'm old enough to remember Nellie Fox, and his hitting style would suit a lot of today's players. That's just one of the things about Pierre's game that I find frustrating. If he choked up, maybe he'd be as hard to stike out as Fox was. Nellie used to strike out only about 11 to 13 times a year!!

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 03:35 PM) Are u saying Pierre+CQ for Victorino+Reliever? I doubt that the Phillies would want Pierre. There wouldn't be any room for him in their outfield, with Brown, Quentin and Ibanez. I was assuming that Pierre would then be traded somewhere else for a reliever.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 02:57 PM) Victorino has much more value than Pods ever had. You are absolutely right about that. There is no question that Pods was never the player that Victorino is, however it is interesting that Pods had a similar year to Victorino's last season, in the year before he was traded for Lee. He was about the same age then as Victorino is now, as well. Like Victorino, Pods had also just completed a year when his batting average and OBP had dropped significantly, while his home run total jumped. Victorino and Pods are both better suited as lead off hitters, not run producers, and perhaps K.W. thinks that he would be a valuable defensive upgrade and a better lead off hitter than his current left fielder.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 01:51 PM) Goodness people, do you really think the Phillies are going to give up the top prospect in baseball for Carlos Quentin? Well, the Phillies have said that they are looking for a right handed power hitting outfielder. Since they now have Victorino, Ibanez and Dominic Brown, as their current outfielders, whom are they planning to replace with that right handed bat. Which one do you think that they would give up for Quentin, in whom they have stated that have an interest? They can't really believe that the Sox would consider Ibanez, so it would have to be Victorino or Brown. For those of you who scoffed at the idea that the Phillies would give up their top minor league prospect, what about the possibility that they would trade Victorino instead? I would prefer Brown, as his upside is far greater, and he would save some money, which Victorino would not. Although Victorino together with a reliever would be closer to the kind of return that K.W. got for Lee. Victorino is another stolen base guy, although he has more pop than Posednik. Could K.W. be thinking to put Victorino in CF, move Rios back to RF? I wouldn't mind that move, if he replaced Pierre with Victorino at lead off, and then put Viciedo in LF, or aquired a proven run producer to play Left.

The kinds of names that have come up in previous, recent speculation regarding Quentin are guys like Dunn, and Rasmus. Judging from that, I hope that Carlos would only be moved for someone of that calibre. I mentioned Dominic Brown because I would regard him as both an appealing return for Quentin, and because the Phillies might be a good fit for that kind of trade with the Sox. Of course, Brown is unproven. However, he is young, cheap, a potential star 3 or 4 tool outfielder, and is left handed. Here are a couple of old scouting reports: http://baseballbeginnings.com/2009/12/05/d...ic-brown-report http://razzball.com/scouting-the-unknown-8-5-09/ Some of you think that he's not a good enough return for Quentin, while others think that the Phillies would never make such a trade, though it would fill one of their stated highest priority needs. So, I have no idea. All I know is that trading Carlos for bullpen arms would not make me at all happy.

The Phillies are looking for a right handed hitting outfielder to replace Werth, and have already been rumored to have been interested in Quentin. I'd take Dominic Brown for Carlos. Put him in RF, and get relievers with the money saved. They might be willing to let Brown go for a proven middle of the order, right handed slugger. With Utley, Howard and Ibanez, plus the switch hitting Rollins and Victorino, they don't need another LH bat.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 10, 2010 -> 09:39 PM) I think he is a risk either way. He could either blossom into the talent we saw in 08, or become an injury riddled bust that never reaches that potential again. While he could haunt management if he goes, he could also be that guy you should of sold high on because he never repeats that success when you kept him. Tough decision for KW, one I would not want to have to make. Although in my opinion, I think we should sell high on him now. I dont know if relief pitching is what I would target, but it is what it is Do you really think that the Sox would be "selling high" on Quentin? His value is probably lower than it has been at any time since before the 2008 season. Judging from the way people on the various forums are talking, they certainly have never been less optimistic about Quentin. Remember, he used to be referred to as "The Carlos Quentin".

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2010 -> 05:39 PM) Everyone must realize KW loves Viciedo. If Quentin gets traded, RF just opened up for Viciedo. I'd be very careful trading Carlos Quentin. Guys who have a horrible year by putting up an .821 OPS don't come around very often. We all are very aware of what he's capable of. I agree that trading Carlos is a huge risk, unless they get back something really terrific. Quentin is the kind of player who could haunt management for several years to come, for giving up on him.

QUOTE (balfanman @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 03:20 PM) People need to realize that everyone on here has an opinion and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most opinions you can't prove wrong one way or the other until way after the fact, but there are those who vehemently insist on proving you wrong, no matter what. Those are the ones who bother me. Hopefully, I can disagree with someone and still respect their opinion. And, of course, this is JMHO on this ! Yes, I agree. Thank you

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 02:17 PM) What are you still doing over there anyway? You have no reason to post anywhere other than SoxTalk. Well, the people on this forum do seem to be more rational, and considerably more polite. Regarding Pierre, I don't think that he is awful, but I did argue that his OBP is not high enough for a guy who doesn't get any Xtra basehits, or even drive the ball. The way I look at it, if he led off every time he came up, his production might be acceptable. The problem is that he's only guaranteed to lead off once per game. When he comes to the plate with guys on base, his ability to steal bases is irrelevant. How many times has he come to the plate with a guy on second and no out, or on third with less than two outs? He can't be counted on to even hit a sacrifice fly, as that's further than he's capable of hitting a baseball. As he ages, and loses a step, he is losing his ability to get all of those infield hits, that he got when he was younger. When you combine that with his weak arm, I'm just not impressed with his skill set. But wow, you'd think that I was a complete idiot for even suggesting that the Sox might try to get a better hitter, and defender, to play either RF or CF, so that Carlos could move to left, where he is less of a defensive liability. When I said that Rios could then be a candidate to lead off, by default, as no one else can really steal bases, the posters were just merciless. "Why do I want to make Rios a lead off hitter". I simply figured that he was the best option to do so, if the rest of the line up consisted of something like: Vizquel Konerko Dunn Quentin Drew Ramirez A. J. Beckham Not that we could get, or even afford J. D. Drew, but I thought that would be a great lineup, and Rios would fit nicely at the top. Geez, you can't believe the "hate". A few even suggested that if we were able to acquire someone like Drew, that the Sox should dump Quentin for a couple relievers, and keep Pierre. That is hard for me to comprehend. Pierre is not likely to ever come back to haunt you, but moving Carlos certainly could. What is disturbing is that these guys don't simply disagree, they want to make you out to be an idiot if you disagree with them. Maybe you're right about not posting there anymore. Thanks for being fair minded, and reasonable. It's refreshing.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:55 AM) I'm trying to forget about Juan Pierre right now because he makes me want to hurl. But I agree. Mitchell is one of, like, 2 prospects we have right now that really, really intrigues me. I just hope it doesn't take him forever to bounce back from missing so much time. So are you saying that you wouldn't deal Dayan, Flowers and whatever scrub for Broxton and maybe another piece? That's where this all started for me. I hate hypothetical trades with no substance like Megatron hates Optimus prime. But I'm buzzed and bored and had to speak my mind. Thank you for expressing your sentiments regarding Pierre. I've posted several extensive comments on White Sox Interactive about how I would like to see the Sox upgrade the outfield, starting with Pierre. The insults and attacks against my suggestions have been "over the top". Geez, I can't help it if a guy who can't drive the ball out of the infield doesn't excite me. Apparently, a lot of the guys on that board just think that it's all about stolen bases. Pierre can do that, but that's about all he can do. At any rate, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who is not enamored with J. P.'s game.

QUOTE (beautox @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 04:04 AM) OS: What is boston going to do now that Crawford is locked up, i wonder if we see Cameron and Scutaro moved. From a baseball perspective im looking forward to seeing what lowrie and the red sox in general do next year edit: code tags I posted this on Whitesox Interactive: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbullet...694#post2660694 What do you think?

Thank you "Whitesoxfan" and "Beautox". I stand corrected regarding E. Jackson's ML service time.

QUOTE (beautox @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 02:32 AM) For a number of reasons: Going into 2011 we don't know what Peavy's health is going to be, he might not even break ST with the sox and he could regress, if not, its never a bad thing to have too much starting pitching, if Peavy is healthy then it allows you to work out an extension with danks/garza or at the deadline or possibly move one of our pitchers not named Buehrle or Peavy. We have situation looming ahead of us with our rotation. Buehrle & Jackson are both FA after this upcoming season, Peavy and Danks in 2012, unless Peavy pitches like his former cy young self the next two years, I don't foresee us picking up his 22m option for 2013, Floyd's a FA after 2013. Garza would be a free agent the same offseaon as Floyd. It would serve the sox well to know what they have going into the 2013 season with a good looking core of Floyd, Garza and Sale. Lastly Quentin is not fit to play RF and he is made of glass, i'm of the feeling he would've made a very good DH but now we have the best DH in the AL so its redundant to keep him on the roster and in addition to that unless Dayan is going to Learn RF with konerkos signing it doesn't make sense to keep him, unless we are going to string him along like the angels did morales. Like i previously stated the rays are pitching rich but need cost effective solutions at 1B and DH, unless their going to use Dan Johnson which if they are going to compete in the east this year they're going to need something with a bit more upside. The last thing for which the Sox need to trade is another starting pitcher. Jackson will not be a free agent at the end of this season. He only has 4.07 years of ML service time. He'll be a free agent after the 2012 season. Quentin is the best hitter we have to provide Dunn some protection, and should bat 5th. I agree that he is not a good enough defender to play RF, but then I've covered that subject pretty well in other posts.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 04:44 PM) Aha I see. For some reason I thought Jackson was a one year rental. Moreover, he will not be a free agent until after the 2012 season. His MLB service time is still only 4.07 years. We can offer arbitration at the end of the year. He could be a big part of the rotation for the next two seasons.