Lillian

QUOTE (wrathofhahn @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 05:32 PM) People are delusional about Engel he was hitting 218 in AAA when he was called up. He's 26 and looks lost at the plate if he ends up being anything more then AAA fodder I'd be surprised. Yes, we understand that he has not yet learned to hit. However, some of us are hopeful that he can. If he can't, he will not be part of this team's future.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 04:04 PM) If you can get Moose for something crazy like 4/$48M or 5/$60M then sure I’d consider it. However, I seriously doubt Boras would agree to such a contract without an opt-out, which is 100% a deal-breaker for me. Therefore, stay the course / keep the draft pick, give Sanchez the 3B ABs in 2018 to see what he can be, pursue the mega 3B free agents the next two offseasons, and find short-term solutions on the cheap if needed. I agree that an opt-out should not be part of the deal. If he isn't going to be part of the equation, when the competitive window opens, I'd rather others have his at bats. My advocacy for him is with 2019, and beyond, in mind.

We've pretty much exhausted this debate on whether, or not, to sign Moustakas. Here is my personal opinion and conclusion: I advocate signing Moustakas to a 4 or 5 year contract, if he can be acquired for $12 Million per year, or less. Here is my argument: 1) 5 years covers his age 29 through 33 seasons, still prime years. 2) 3RD base is the one hole, which needs filling, now and into the foreseeable future. I love Yolmer, but he is not a middle of the order hitter 3) He provides a much needed solid LH, middle of the order, power bat 4) His 38 homers, in 2017, are a KC record and the 24 HR's, in just 74 games, on the road, are very impressive. He should be a force at Guaranteed Rate Field. 5) While he doesn't walk at an ideal rate, his strike outs are very respectable, for a true power hitter. His 2017 94 Strike outs, with 38 HR's and a .531 Slugging % was among the best in baseball. We would all like a better OBP, but if he possessed one, he would be a $20 million per year player. 6) His 2015 stats were very consistently solid, with the exception of his July .188 AVG., immediately following the time that his mother lost her struggle with cancer. He took two family leaves during that time. That .188 was more than 100 points lower than the rest of his season. If you take out that month, of understandable emotional stress, he hit .302. 7) That contract would be very reasonable, relative to today's market, and would not preclude another major commitment 8) He would not block any top prospect, currently in the organization. 9) He has valuable Post Season experience 10) Good club house guy 11) Before his knee injury, his defense was rated better than average, and he is now another year further removed from knee surgery and should be an adequate defender. 2019 Lineup, versus RHP: 2B Moncada RF Avi 1B Abreu 3B Moustakas LF Eloy SS Anderson C Navaerez/Narvaez DH Delmonico/Davidson CF Defense First, take your pick?????? That's my perspective. Anyone care to summarize an opposing view?

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 12:53 PM) In addition to the hit tool issue, Engel has less raw power than Cordell and a much worse arm. I think it's fair to say that Cordell has a better overall package of tools. Obviously Engel has super elite speed and insane potential from a defense standpoint. That is not my perception. Here is what Future Sox had to say about Engel's tools: "The reason he's been a Top 30 prospect for a couple years now is almost entirely about his tools. Engel has true plus-plus speed, a strong arm and elite athleticism. He's gotten body comps to Mike Trout, and he's got enough strength that some scouts see latent power potential he's yet to tap into." Here is MLB Pipeline's evaluation of Cordell: His scouting grades according to mlbpipeline (as of 2017) were: Hit 45 Power 55 Run 60 Arm 55 Field 55. Engel's arm is certainly at least 55 Of course, the big question is whether, or not, Adam will ever make consistent contact. Again, I concur that Cordell appears to be much further along with his hitting.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 12:12 PM) I put them in a dead heat mostly because Cordell is viewed as having more tools and he is younger than Engel so those tools put him above Engel and but the Engel defense out there means a lot . Based on ceiling , age, power, arm Cordell has batter tools than Engel Are you sure about that? Except for the critical hit tool, I think that Engel has considerably more speed, as much power and an elite glove. They may both be potentially 5 tool players, but I don't think that Cordell has the potential for the elite speed and defense in CF, that Engel has. On the other hand, Engel is not nearly as far along with his development as a hitter. A guy can figure that out, and learn to hit, but you can't acquire that kind of speed.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 06:13 PM) What would be the point of signing Moustakas to a one year contract and losing a draft pick and that slot position money? That's a move a contender makes, not a rebuilding team such as the Sox. I don't understand how anyone can argue against this point. 'BlackSox' sounds exactly right. The only way it might make sense for the Sox, would be if they thought that they could flip him to a contender, during the season and get back something better than the 2ND round draft pick, that they will lose.

Therefore, do I understand that you guys think that Boras would urge him to take a one year deal, in order to try to re-enter the free agent market, with that stacked free agent group, next year? I'm skeptical.

QUOTE (wrathofhahn @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 04:59 PM) Five years is stupid there is no reason to offer him that kind of length. I'd do 3/33 or possibly 4/42 backloaded with an opt out after two. Who are we bidding against? Do you think that he would accept an offer like that?

I'm going to go "out on a limb" here and predict that the Sox will sign Moustakas, and that it will be 5 years. If they were seriously considering it, before this injury to Burger, it now seems very likely. It just makes too much sense, and shouldn't completely rule out trying to sign Machado, though I don't see the Sox winning that bidding war.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 04:28 PM) He shouldnt have an issue coming back. As a 3B not relying on speed his demands are different. His body type is a concern but he should be fine in about 6-8 months. NFL players come back from it, he can as well. Its not going to be a fun rehab. Thanks for the optimistic note. Coming from you, it means a lot. I'm a little more hopeful, even if it takes a while.

If it is a torn achilles tendon, it's hard to imagine that Burger could be ready to contribute at the Major League level, until 2021, or later. He is going to turn 22 in April and was not projected to be called up until 2020. This injury could very well set him back a couple of years. Signing someone to a 5 year free agent contract would now seem more plausible. This obviously makes our discussion regarding the acquisition of Moustakas, Machado, Arenado etc., more relevant.

I mentioned this several weeks ago, but I question whether Machado would really be worth what he is likely to get paid. The argument is that his OBP is not, nor has it ever been, so far in his career, at a level that justifies $35 Million per year, on a 10 year contract. He is very young, so he may improve his OBP this season, which could change the equation. Guys like Miguel Cabrera, Bryce Harper, Joey Votto and Mike Trout have had OBP's of .400 plus, since their early 20's. Machado has yet to demonstrate the ability to do that. Something else, which no one ever mentions is that a player who gets paid that much money could have an adverse effect upon the rest of the team. It's only natural for players to compare themselves to other players, in terms of their own production and what they get paid. That becomes most important, when it comes time to negotiate a new contract. If a team is going to pay one player that much more than any of the rest of its roster, he better demonstrate that he deserves it. We are all entitled to our opinion, and if you disagree, please consider these thoughts just things to think about. I could be persuaded to change my opinion, but that's just my perspective. Hey, when a team is considering spending that kind of money, it behooves them to think about everything.

Basabe is probably pronounced Bah sah bay. The first person, singular imperfect conjugation of the verb Basar, is basaba, which is pronounced; bah-sah-bah. The only difference in his name is the 'e' ending, which is always pronounced like a long 'A' or 'ay'. So, it should be bah-sah-bay. I'm sending this message from my winter home in Costa Rica, where I have spent at least 1/2 of each year, for the last 28 years. That's how my Costa Rican friends would pronounce it.

If the Sox miss out on the Manny Machado "sweepstakes," and he signs with the Yankees, what about trying to acquire one of their promising third base prospects? N.Y. could have a log jam, on the left side of their infield. Might Glyber Torres, or Andujar be worth pursuing, in a trade?.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Feb 24, 2018 -> 10:55 AM) Where did anyone get the idea that 2019 was part of the window? The only way this team is even competing for a WC spot in 2019 is with a mega signing like Machado, which is why signing Moustakas now makes no sense. The starting staff, in 2019 could well be; 1 Kopech 2 Rodon 3 Giolito 4 Hansen 5 Lopez/Cease/Dunning/Fulmer, Clarkin or several others Bullpen: The 2 to 4 starters, who don't make the starting staff Jones Avilan Burdi Possible acquisition The Lineup could be: Moncada Avi Abreu Insert your favorite acquisition, or 2 Eloy Anderson Castillo CF? Whoever wins the job of holding down the position, until Robert arrives Then there is always the possibility that youngsters like Delmonico, Collins, Davidson and Gillaspie emerge as legitimate contributors That looks to me, like it has a realistic potential to begin the competitive window, in 2019.

Why not 5 years, at $12 Million per year? That would cover his age 29, through 33, seasons. That's still mostly within the normal prime, and 4 of those 5 years are within the anticipated window of contention, for this rebuilt team. It's hard to imagine that the Sox couldn't use his LH bat, somewhere even if it were as a DH.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 23, 2018 -> 07:53 PM) I’m not trying to make things personal, but you said “They need a respectable left handed bat, more than they need a top 5 player.” That’s what sent me into a frenzy. If you think it’s not wise to commit $30M+ a year that’s a different argument altogether (although I still wouldn’t agree), but your initial statements never really suggested that. It really came off like you were arguing fit over production. I know others feel the same way based on posts in this thread. Perhaps, if you put that quote in its context, you will have a different interpretation. Here is the entire quote again: "I agree with Caulfield. If this rebuild goes right, the Sox will have a lot of really good players, at most of the key positions. They need a respectable left handed bat, more than they need a top 5 player. No team has All Stars at every position. Not that Moustakas couldn't be an All Star again. You add his bat and Eloy's, in 2019 and this team could be very competitive, if the pitching is ready. Then you have that future outfield of Eloy, Robert, Adolfo and Rutherford or Basabe, all ready to take over, in 2020 or 2021, if you trade Avi. Again, I don't see the need to spend $350 Million, or more, on Machado." My point was quite clear. I was asserting that they will have their share of stars, if the rebuild goes right. That would reduce the need to spend $350 million, or more, on a top 5 player. Again, context matters. If they lacked star players, it would be much more important to sign one, or two. However, if the lineup were loaded with real studs, that need would be greatly reduced. Focusing on my assertion that they really need a left handed bat, let me articulate it this way; Assuming that the lineup consisted of the following VERY PRODUCTIVE (star) players; Moncada, Avi, Abreu, Eloy, Castillo and Anderson and the front office still wanted to spend $350 million, or more on one more player, I would prefer Harper, to Machado, and yes, he would better balance the lineup, which would otherwise be very heavily weighted with right handed hitters.

It isn't productive to make these arguments personal, so I'll simply quote the posts, which I have made regarding this issue of Machado, versus Moustakas, as a potential free agent acquisition. I hope that this will further clarify my position, and that we can move on to other points. I have bolded the central point, which is that money is a significant consideration, and that while I recognize that Machado is the better player, I'm skeptical that he would be worth the enormous cost: 2/21 Just to clarify: I certainly do not think that Moustakas is a better player than Machado. However, I'm not sure that Machado is a better value, at $35 Million, per year, than Moustakas, at $12 Million per year. Those numbers are merely speculation, but they illustrate my point. Yesterday 8:09 pm I agree with Caulfield. If this rebuild goes right, the Sox will have a lot of really good players, at most of the key positions. They need a respectable left handed bat, more than they need a top 5 player. No team has All Stars at every position. Not that Moustakas couldn't be an All Star again. You add his bat and Eloy's, in 2019 and this team could be very competitive, if the pitching is ready. Then you have that future outfield of Eloy, Robert, Adolfo and Rutherford or Basabe, all ready to take over, in 2020 or 2021, if you trade Avi. Again, I don't see the need to spend $350 Million, or more, on Machado. Yesterday 9:22 pm Donaldson will be too old. Machado and Arenado will be too expensive. Sure, if ownership wants to spend the money, I'm certainly not going to complain and of course, they are better players, than Moustakas. However, that doesn't seem realistic, to me. Moreover, it would be nice to extend some of the young stars, rather than have to let a bunch of them go, when they hit free agency. They might not have that financial flexibility, if they spend $35 Million per year on a third baseman. Why is that "mind-boggling"? I do agree that giving up the draft pick is a big negative. Today 8:09 am To be more precise; I would prefer the left handed bat at $12 Million, for 5 years, to the Super Star right handed hitter, at $35 Million, for 10 years. That preference stems from the fact that we already have several potential Super Stars, and all but one of them, hit right handed. If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas. Today 8:52 am I don't understand why some of you continue to completely ignore the issue of money. If you read what I just posted, I clearly stated the difference in the cost, as being a critical component of my preference. I said; "If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas". Ignoring money might be excused, when talking about a few dollars, but not when it involves hundreds of millions of dollars.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 23, 2018 -> 08:19 AM) Honestly this is sillier than you wanting Grady Sizemore batting cleanup for what seemed like 3 straight years that he didn’t play ball for anyone. Forgoing a superstar player simply because he hits right handed is more than mind boggling I don't understand why some of you continue to completely ignore the issue of money. If you read what I just posted, I clearly stated the difference in the cost, as being a critical component of my preference. I said; "If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas". Ignoring money might be excused, when talking about a few dollars, but not when it involves hundreds of millions of dollars.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 22, 2018 -> 09:09 PM) This is absolutely mind-boggling to me. You’d actually pass a significantly better player because of a desire to have a more balance lineup in terms of handedness. You realize that Machado & Donaldson are just as good against RHP (if not better) than Moustakas is right? But they bring much overall ability to the table. Regardless, focusing on building the most perfectly balanced lineup this early into a rebuild is a dangerous game. The goal first & foremost should be talent accumulation (preferably impact talent) and worrying about it all fits together later on. To be more precise; I would prefer the left handed bat at $12 Million, for 5 years, to the Super Star right handed hitter, at $35 Million, for 10 years. That preference stems from the fact that we already have several potential Super Stars, and all but one of them, hit right handed. If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 22, 2018 -> 09:09 PM) This is absolutely mind-boggling to me. You’d actually pass a significantly better player because of a desire to have a more balance lineup in terms of handedness. You realize that Machado & Donaldson are just as good against RHP (if not better) than Moustakas is right? But they bring much overall ability to the table. Regardless, focusing on building the most perfectly balanced lineup this early into a rebuild is a dangerous game. The goal first & foremost should be talent accumulation (preferably impact talent) and worrying about it all fits together later on. Donaldson will be too old. Machado and Arenado will be too expensive. Sure, if ownership wants to spend the money, I'm certainly not going to complain and of course, they are better players, than Moustakas. However, that doesn't seem realistic, to me. Moreover, it would be nice to extend some of the young stars, rather than have to let a bunch of them go, when they hit free agency. They might not have that financial flexibility, if they spend $35 Million per year on a third baseman. Why is that "mind-boggling"? I do agree that giving up the draft pick is a big negative.

I agree with Caulfield. If this rebuild goes right, the Sox will have a lot of really good players, at most of the key positions. They need a respectable left handed bat, more than they need a top 5 player. No team has All Stars at every position. Not that Moustakas couldn't be an All Star again. You add his bat and Eloy's, in 2019 and this team could be very competitive, if the pitching is ready. Then you have that future outfield of Eloy, Robert, Adolfo and Rutherford or Basabe, all ready to take over, in 2020 or 2021, if you trade Avi. Again, I don't see the need to spend $350 Million, or more, on Machado.

This might provide an explanation for the terrible .188 AVG. in July, during his All Star 2015 season: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-colum...le36249930.html He took family leave twice, in the period leading up to his mother's loosing battle with cancer. She passed away the month following his poor July, on August 9TH.

Regarding this argument that it is not meaningful to evaluate stats, if any portion is excluded: When you have consistent statistical data, with a short period, which is significantly divergent, I think that it's fair to consider that data as an aberration. It's a long season. If a hitter hit .300 every month, but one, in which he hit .200, what would you conclude? Going forward, would you anticipate that he would hit around .300 .200, or the average of his entire season? I would interpret that data as indicative of a .300 hitter, who had a really bad month. The question then becomes, what caused that aberration? Was he hurt, or was it attributed to something else? To put it another way, I would take that good production in 5 of the 6 months, and hope that the rest of the team could pick up the slack, during that one bad month, if it should recur. The more consistent the production, and the greater the divergence of the one exception, the less significance one could reasonably attach to that aberration.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Feb 22, 2018 -> 08:25 AM) Every player looks good if you remove all the times when they are bad. Try doing that with Todd Frazier, since coming to the A. L. Last year's monthly batting averages: .183 .185 .261 .192 .221 .225. Which month would you like to take out? His one month of statistical aberration is the .261, not the 5 other months, hovering around the "Mendoza line".