Lillian

One could argue, from another perspective, that trading young, affordable, top of the rotation starters, like Sale and Quintana is not such a good idea. Pitching is still the most important component of a championship team, and much more difficult and expensive to acquire, than position players. The Sox are very close to having that Post Season winning starting staff. If J. R. really wants to win, they could much more easily fill one or two holes in the offense, than try to rebuild the entire roster. Think of it like this; even if trading Sale and Q. were to bring back a great young offensive team, from where would they build a winning starting staff? Moreover, championship teams rarely have, and don't really need to have potent hitters at every position. How many contenders have good hitters in the lower third of the order? And remember, there is no guarantee that the young players coming back would realize their lofty potential. Add one or two bats to the Sox lineup and it suddenly looks a lot different. Imagine if they had just Lucroy as their catcher. You could find a plus defender in CF, maybe even Jackson, if he can return soon enough, and they would look just fine. RF Eaton SS Anderson 1B Abreu LF Cabrera C Lucroy DH Morneau 3B Frazier 2B Lawrie CT ? On the other hand, a starting rotation of Rodon, Fulmer, Shields and two question marks is not going to win, even with a young star studded lineup.

I'm sorry to say it, but I don't think that this story is going to have a happy ending. The team came together, after the La Roche incident and started the season on fire. However, it seems unlikely that this will have a similar effect. At least in the former incident, Sale wasn't demonstrating a selfish attitude. He was defending a teammate. In this case, it all seems to be about him. The one question that nobody seems to be asking is perhaps the most important; How do his teammates feel about his behavior? If Sale were to be perceived as a clubhouse "cancer," or at least a negative influence, that would put management in a bad position. The front office would be more inclined to trade him, right when his value could be diminished. In any case, non of this helps the organization's image. Appearing to be disfunctional doesn't help to attract new fans, and it doesn't make the Sox a more desirable destination for future free agents. Again, I don't see this story ending well. Maybe I'm just over reacting? I hope so.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 08:14 PM) Maybe he really doesnt want to be traded and is using this to lower his value. Sure is a strange way to demonstrate how much you love your organization, and exactly what is it about this team that would make him want to stay on it? I'd guess that he would prefer to be on a contending team and one that could score some runs for him. Don't interpret my comment as siding with him. It's just an observation.

Or, what if Sale wants to help his "new" team by trying to reduce the amount and quality of players that they have to include in a trade to the Sox? That could be in Sale's interest.

Let's try to analyze this from a different tack. What are the holes that need to be filled, going forward a year or 2: SS Anderson RF Eaton 1B Abreu DH ? C Collins 3B ? CF ? 2B ? Lf ? Trade Sale to Boston for Moncada and Jackie Bradley Jr., filling the holes at second base and centerfield. Boston could use Holt in center, for the rest of the season. Trade Robertson, Frazier and Melky to which ever teams could fill at least 2 of the other 3 holes, with young cost controlled players. You could include Lawrie, but he probably wouldn't bring back much. I'm beginning to get excited about Alex Call as a potential future outfielder. A DH could best be acquired in the Free agent market, and if Collins ends up at first, Abreu would DH. Keep Quintana, and hope that Rodon, Fullmer, Adams and Hansen, could fill out the rest of the rotation. Burdi and Jones might be able to hold down the back end of the bullpen.

The old adages are worth remembering: "Pitching is 80% of the game"; "Good pitching will always stop good hitting"; "Great pitching wins championships," etc. Now, factor in the exorbitant cost of locking up great pitching, e.g; Scherzer and Greinke. It seems that any team that wants Sale or Quintana would have to give up more than a top prospect, regardless of how promising he may be. Promises don't always translate into production. How do you trade one established Super Star, on a reasonable contract, for even a potential "Super Star," especially, when your Super Star is a pitcher and the other player is a position player? I would want more than Moncada, in a deal for Sale. The Sox have to be filling at least 2, preferably 3 holes, if they create the huge hole that losing Sale would represent. I know that we all have a tendency to over value our own players and prospects, but that is not the case with our lofty opinion of Chris Sale.

Oh, I'm sorry. I couldn't imagine. Thanks

Did I miss something? I don't see any thread discussing this: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com http://m.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article/191...for-chris-sale/ The articles speculated that the Sox would want Profar and Gallo. What would you consider a fair return for Sale?

It is hard to imagine that they would trade both Sale and Quintana. How would they rebuild a starting rotation, with both of those arms gone? One of them does indeed make sense, if they can fill several holes, in return. I'm still leaning toward trading one of them and a few veteran offensive players, such as Frazier.

Maybe the front office will try some kind of half measured "rebuild". They could keep the pitching, but try to assemble a better offense. That has been their biggest weakness. That middle of the order, consisting of Abreu, Melky and Frazier is not really very productive. With Abreu having an off year, and Frazier being an all or nothing slugger, they are not likely to score enough runs to make this squad contenders. Frazier seems to be the trade chip, most likely to net something worthwhile. I like Melky, and his left handed bat, but he is not a #3 or 4 hitter. They need two studs at those two spots. Maybe Collins will be one of them, in a year, or two, but unless Jose rebounds, he doesn't measure up. He has been the biggest disappointment for me, of anyone on the roster. A third consecutive year of .300, with 30 homers and 100 driven in, would have been great, but it doesn't look like he's going to get there. A stellar staff is too hard and too costly to assemble. They have the pieces to accomplish that, and with the potential of Rodon, Fullmer and Hansen, they may ultimately be able to move Sale, or Quintana. However, for the time being, it might make more sense to keep the starting staff together, and try to concentrate on fixing the offense, for next season. I think Frazier and Robertson are the two guys who should be shopped the hardest. Depending upon what they get back, they could then focus on filling the rest of the remaining holes. Does anyone think that Davidson might be capable of holding down the hot corner, next season? If so, the infield could be set with Davidson, Anderson Lawrie and Abreu. If not, they would have to go outside the organization to replace Frazier. I don't like moving Lawrie back to 3RD. I like his defense at second much better and his bat plays pretty well there. There aren't that many second basemen who put up much better offensive numbers than he has, so far. I think that they have to find a good centerfield replacement, in any trade for Frazier and, or Robertson. I believe that most of us agree that Eaton should stay in RF

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 01:26 PM) FYI, 70 MPH from 46 feet is the equivalent of 92 MPH from regular distance. You would absolutely kill your pitching staff if you had them throw BP like a game. This is what I wrote: "While a BP fastball, thrown from a shorter distance, may approximate the reaction time, the speed, at which the pitch is traveling is vastly different. Major League hitters have the bat speed to catch up to high 90's pitches. However, their eyes require some adjustment to pick up the ball, if they have just been looking at pitches traveling 70 miles an hour." Perhaps you missed the point. Finding guys who could throw fast balls, from the mound, would not be a difficult challenge. I'm sure that there are plenty of failed prospects, who could perform that function.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) Bregman, Reed, McCullers, Martes, and Tucker. Who says no to that: the Sox or the Astros? Where are the established Major Leaguers in that proposed deal? How do you trade Sale for a bunch of prospects? Too many top prospects fail to pan out.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 10:41 AM) I won't argue any points about the Home Run Derby. I see both good and bad with it, and one could always argue that it screws up the participants for the rest of the season. However, batting practice is a valuable part of a hitter's training every day. Tee work, side toss, soft toss, BP fastballs...it's all stuff hitters do each day. Slower pitches from a shorter distance are, in my opinion, more effective than a pitching machine. Live pitching is more effective because of the variation in location and speed. Besides, some extended BP hitting (like the home run derby) isn't going to destroy a hitter because the pitching is slower. Well, that has always been conventional baseball wisdom. However, as a counter argument, think about this: Conventional baseball wisdom also asserts that it is easier to hit a pitcher, the second or third time through the lineup. That notion is based upon the concept that the hitter can begin to get accustomed to what the pitcher is throwing. If that's true, how does hitting BP fastballs, from a shorter distance, off the mound, help the hitter to get "accustomed" to anything?. It takes the hitter's eye a little while to get used to the speed of the ball. While a BP fastball, thrown from a shorter distance, may approximate the reaction time, the speed, at which the pitch is traveling is vastly different. Major League hitters have the bat speed to catch up to high 90's pitches. However, their eyes require some adjustment to pick up the ball, if they have just been looking at pitches traveling 70 miles an hour. Several years ago, in my 50's, we owned a Atec Casey, Pro pitching machine. The boys used to take a lot of batting practice. I couldn't resist and spent many hours, for several years, hitting with the family. I didn't have strong enough hands to catch up to the fastest pitches, but did pretty well with the off speed stuff, including the curve balls and sliders. What originally got me thinking about the subject of the article, to which I referred, was that I noticed how hard it was for my eyes to adjust to the faster pitches, after looking at off speed stuff. I could eventually see a 90 mile an hour fast ball, on any given day, but not until seeing several of them, especially after seeing a lot of slower pitches. So, while my lack of strength and bat speed made it difficult to hit the "heaters," my eyes could at least get used to the higher velocity pitches, but not immediately. Each new session required seeing several fastballs, before my eyes could pick it up. I've spoken to lots of guys who have played baseball, and they agreed with my observation. In much the same way, after looking a several fast balls, a curve ball almost appeared to be traveling in slow motion. It was hard to wait on those pitches, which seemed to take forever to reach the plate. I found them very easy to hit. Of course, I knew they were coming, so I was able to keep my front shoulder in, and not "bail" on the balls that broke from inside, into the strike zone. The eyes had to adjust to the speed, in either case.

I've never liked the concept of "batting practice," because seeing slow pitches, from a shorter distance, does nothing to help the hitter's eye to become accustomed to the type of pitches, which he will see in a game. If anything, it could be detrimental. Several years ago, I wrote an article about it, and gave it to Greg Walker, who was then the Sox hitting coach. He agreed with me, but it's hard to break baseball tradition. The point is that the Home Run Derby is much too much of that potentially detrimental activity. Not only are the pitches not representative of what a batter sees, but the swings are not the kind that he should be taking in a game. So much of hitting is timing and getting the eye trained to follow, and see pitches. The more rounds and pitches that a contestant sees in the Derby, the more likely he is to screw up both his timing and his swing. At this point, I'd like to see Frazier take a day, or two off, just look at some regular pitches and then start taking BP in the cages, off a pitching machine, throwing MLB caliber pitches. Maybe he could stand in the "box," just to look at the pitches, during one of the starter's side sessions, out in the bullpen. This guy has had a bad swing all season long, and all those pitches in the Derby likely did little to fix it. His homer, or strike out approach couldn't have been helped by the Derby. The last thing a guy needs, who is leading his team in homers, but last in average and OBP, is to be participating in the Home Run Derby.

He did have an awful second half, last year, after winning the HR Derby. That competition has messed up a few hitters, over the years. If that happens again, this team is going to be just awful. His only value on offense is his ability to hit home runs. Once that goes, he will be worthless, and certainly not capable of being a middle of the order hitter. Just imagine what the offense would look like, if that happens. Yikes!!!

It is becoming increasingly easy to see the point of those who argue that it's futile to try to fix this team's offense, for this year. Moreover, it's difficult to have much confidence in Hahn's ability to make a good trade. I'd prefer to see the front office try to get some young players to replenish the depleted farm system. They probably should be seeing what they could get for Shields, Frazier, Cabrera and Lawrie. Non of those guys will likely be on this team, past next season and this mix appears not to represented a very well constructed offense. I guess you could add Robertson to that list. We shouldn't expect Jackson to be back next year either, so there's another hole which will need filling, not that he really has filled it, to this point. Maybe they should figure out what their core is going to be in their oft cited "3 year" plan, and trade everyone who doesn't figure into that equation. So, that leaves Eaton, Anderson, Abreu, Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Fullmer, Jones, and the best of our recently signed draft picks. Whom have I forgotten. Which of our current Minor Leaguers would you expect might be able to fill some of the many holes on the roster, after such a purge? Could C. Sanchez, Davidson, Delmonico or May be reasonably expected to make any contribution to the Big League roster? It's hard to believe that they haven't scored a run in the last 3 games. WHAT A MESS!!

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 12:28 PM) fixed. Doesn't trust the front office to make a trade, so therefore, it's time to downgrade the position. I am shocked because Shuck is left handed. Your wise crack aside, you stumbled onto an interesting point. Shuck actually has a history of hitting left handers better than right handers, so using him because he's left handed, doesn't make sense. Moreover, I haven't been advocating a left handed hitter per say, but rather a "middle of the order" Left handed hitter. Hopefully, Morneau will fill that role. For those of you who think that I obsess about the need for a middle of the order, left handed bat, I'll remind you that Hahn has openly acknowledged that very need. I like Bourgeois because he could hit lead off. He has pretty good on base percentage skills, doesn't strike out much and can steal a base. I am not thrilled with Anderson leading off, because of his inability to take walks. If Bourgeois led off and could produce around a .350 OBP, then Eaton could stay in the #2 hole, and Anderson could hit somewhere further down in the lineup, although I'm not sure where.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 07:52 AM) Lillian, with all due respect, back to the drawing board with that plan. We might be laughed out of the American League with that plan...or at least the City of Chicago. That may be, however he is probably the most suitable option, within the organization. I don't trust our front office to make any more trades.

I'm ready to give the journeyman Minor Leaguer, Jason Burgeois a shot. I know that he's 34, but he's always been a capable hitter, and is having a career year.

QUOTE (StrykerSox @ Jul 6, 2016 -> 08:19 PM) That makes sense, especially about the launch angle issue. I clearly remember that he used to throw these totally ineffective worm burners. Either way, glad that's fixed! To all of you who are wondering why Eaton did not display this arm last season, I understand that he was in tremendous pain all of last year. The shoulder surgery has removed all of the pain.

Eaton's throwing is just insane. Do you think that the surgeon did more than just clean up that shoulder? It's like he has a bionic arm, or something.

Returning to the thread topic; Anderson is a revelation for me. He has so much more baseball ability than I anticipated. I had this mistaken notion that he was a great athlete, but very raw, in terms of his baseball skills. All of those scouting reports, which described his defense as being questionable, and his alleged lack of plate discipline, had me thinking that he would be over matched by Big League pitchers. He has so much more range at short, and so much more power at the plate, than I expected. He just may be a 5 tool player. When you consider how young he is, and that he has only recently begun to concentrate on baseball, after playing mostly basketball, you have to be excited about his future. The issue of plate discipline is interesting. He has continued his pattern of not taking walks. However, he doesn't seem to swing and miss, at a lot of bad pitches. He may simply be one of those aggressive hitters, who likes to swing at strikes, early in the count. That is not an entirely bad approach. While you don't see that many pitches, you do have a better chance to swing at a more hittable pitch, by not waiting around until you get behind in the count. Hawk brought up an interesting point, during the Houston series. He pointed out that since starters only go 6 or 7 innings, before automatically turning it over to the bullpen, there really isn't that great of an advantage of trying to run up the pitch count. I pointed out, in a previous post, that there are a lot of very hittable pitches, outside the strike zone, providing that the hitter doesn't try to do too much. If a hitter is willing to take an outside pitch to the opposite field, there is nothing wrong with swinging at it. Well, just a few observations, but at least we're back on the topic of Tim Anderson.

I think almost all of us agree that his lack of willingness to take an ocassional base on balls is a concern. However, there is a nuanced point, which should be mentioned. In addition to having a "quick" bat, and exceptional speed, his ability to take outside pitches to right field, should afford him the ability to get a lot of base hits on balls which are not necessarily strikes. Unlike a power hitter, who tries to pull every pitch, a hitter who is willing to go the other way, can be very successful, swinging at outside pitches. A hitter's ability to expand the strike zone, and hit outside pitches, with good results, can be a tremendous advantage. It takes away one of the important pitches, which a pitcher can employ to get a hitter out. Therefore, while he still needs to have enough plate discipline to avoid swinging at everything, that does not necessarily mean that he must limit himself to swinging only at strikes. In the limited opportunity that I've had to observe him, Anderson does seem to lay off really bad pitches. He has gotten several base hits to right field, on outside pitches. As long as he continues to avoid "rolling over" on the outside pitches, and maintains his "inside out" swing, with the hands before the barrel of the bat, he may not need to alter anything. I must admit that I am very impressed with his ability. So far, he is much better than the scouting reports, especially on defense. I hope that the coaching staff doesn't try to get him to alter his approach. Until he demonstrates that he is hurting himself, why not let him stick with what seems to be working for him?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 28, 2016 -> 06:47 AM) Come on Lillian, Morneau isnt a committment, he is a lottery ticket. That may very well be, however two more bats, in addition to the Morneau "lottery ticket," just seems like overkill to me. I think that the bullpen is a higher priority.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Jun 28, 2016 -> 06:15 AM) If we kept Latos we could've put Gonzalez in the pen. But I guess that ship has sailed. That was the smartest move that would allow the team to focus on trading for an impact bat (like Cargo) rather than just another guy and a reliever. If they are honestly "going for it" they might as well just trade Fulmer and anyone else still in the minors to plug holes. Because the whole thing is going to have to get blown up if this 3 year plan doesn't work. If they could do something like get Beltran and Cargo that would make me fairly confident we would be in the wild card mix until the last day. I'm sure Avi could be involved in one of those trades. Maybe even Saladino if they were willing to risk leaving the bench very thin. lf - m cabrera cf - eaton rf - c gonzalez dh - beltran 1b - abreu 2b - lawrie ss - anderson 3b - frazier c - avila (with collins in the wings) That would be a pretty sweet lineup. Literally zero on the bench though. I guess we could bring up Leury as a speed guy off the bench. You also have Burdi as a potential setup man for end of this season and the playoffs. Rodon would really have to make some strides in the 2nd half of the season but that could be a surprisingly good playoff team. They don't need to add two bats, as they are already committed to Morneau, to fill one spot. One more bat and a bullpen arm, would make more sense to me.