SoxHawk1980

Whoops. One too many negatives there. Let me rephrase: Do you realize that neither Gio nor Floyd have EVER performed well at a level higher than AA?

Do you realize that neither Gio nor Floyd have EVER performed well at a level higher than AA? Floyd has gotten a number of chances in the majors and failed repeatedly. He's still got work to do in the minors. Gio is young for AA and still hasn't mastered that level yet. Neither of these guys are ready for the majors. Sure, they may get pushed into major league duty, but there is NO evidence that they are ready to be even mediocre in the majors. If either of these guys plays a "major roll in Chicago next year," we're in big trouble.

Did I say anything about not trusting any experts POV on the players we received? They are both decent prospects with upside potential. My problem with the trade is NOT that I think they'll never be good. They might. But no one should expect anything good from them at the major league level in 2007. Floyd has great stuff and Gio has some real upside potential. But with prospects, it is all about potential and not infrequently the potential of prospects is never realized. I have real concern (and frankly everyone does) about the fact that Floyd has never performed well at the majors or at AAA. His career AAA era is 5.24. So far, he's not even a good AAA pitcher. So I respect his stuff and respect the potential of both of these prospects. I think KW could and definitely should have done better than to get two prospects who are clearly not ready for major league duty.

I don't think Coop or any other pitching coach can look at a pitcher and have a good idea if he can fix him. Coop has been able to help some pitchers and not others. Coop gets the pitchers that are on the roster and does his best to make them better. He doesn't know how fixable they are, and frankly neither does KW. KW saw a lot of talent (Floyd does have great stuff) and he knows he has a good pitching coach. KW is gambling that Floyd's talent + Coops talent = a greatly improved Floyd. That's how it works.

Thank you. I accept your apology.

I'm sure this is just the beginning.

Because I don't want the Sox to spend $20 million a year for 6 guaranteed years on a guy who isn't one of the very best players in the game (not as good as guys like Pujols...the very elite of baseball players), that means I don't want the Sox to spend money? Of course I want the Sox to spend money. But that doesn't mean that the Sox should spend more than a player is worth to them.

I doubt there are more than 12 people in the world who are not Sox fans who think this deal was about even. Check out the comments on rotoworld, Baseball Prospectus and just about anywhere else on this trade. Everyone is shocked that the Sox gave up so little for Garcia.

The reality is that pitching coaches don't scout. Front offices don't send pitching coaches out on scouting trips. Front offices don't give pitching coaches a bunch of tapes on a pitcher so they can evaluate them. That simply isn't how baseball organizations work. And there's a reason that isn't how baseball organizations do things. Frankly, pitching coaches are good at coaching and teaching and not so good at talent evaluation. That's what scouts do and what they are good at.

Watchtower is right. The front office doesn't check with coaches (except sometimes the manager) on whether they should acquire a player. It just doesn't happen. That isn't how things work. KW of course consulted other front office staff and all of the scouts who had seen him, but he wouldn't contact Cooper doesn't really know the guy. I heard the radio interview and Coop said he had seen Floyd "once on TV." That's it.

Wells isn't worth 6/120. Given the fact that this organization isn't spend-happy, if they were to give Wells that much money, it would hamstring us from acquiring other decent players for the next 6 years (or lead us essentially give away good players with significant salaries).

Unfortunately, it isn't just how he's pitched in the majors. He has 283 AAA innings and his ERA there was 5.24. This guy hasn't succeeded above the AA level...ever. I think the Phils fans know him better than we do.

Who knows. This is a great move for them in 2007. They rightfully lost all faith in Floyd. Gio wasn't going to ready for 2-3 years and that is still a maybe. So they got a good starter for a year and didn't have to mortgage their future to get it.

Ok. The ones who have posted on this board and the ones I've talked to are overjoyed. I would be too.

Nope.

First of all, in the realm of "calling people names," calling someone a homer is pretty light. Seconf of all, the "thrust of my argument" isn't name calling. The thrust of my argument is reasons I have listed (in detail) of why the trade was bad. I call people homers when they deserve it. When I see people working very hard to convince themselves that a bad deal his team made is actually good one, that is homer thinking overcoming honest, intelligent thinking. It happens.

I responded to your post when you posted it. When I read your later post, I responded to that as well. I didn't feel like dissecting why it is that you just assume that everything KW does is good for the Sox. I thought it would be more belittling to point out that it makes little sense to see one trade that you like (the Wells trade) and then assume from that point on that all trades and signings are good ones. To each his own. No need to be so unfriendly.

Ok, so it's not 5 years. It's 4 1/2 years. 4 1/2 years, plus some qualms. It appears that you choose not to be critical of Sox moves. You both hope for the best and assume that it must be good for the organization, with rare exceptions. I tend to critically analyze Sox moves and attempt to objectively figure out if it was good for the team, and if so, how much.

You haven't been critical of a move the Sox have made for the last 5 years? That says a lot. Actually I didn't throw any accusation at you. Just hyperbole. It is silly to say that I blindly criticize the Sox when I give thoughtful, meaningful, and well supported criticism whenever I do criticize. One can certainly disagree with my criticisms, but they aren't without merit. Nor are they knee-jerk reactions. They are just my opinions, which are as valid as any on here. And, personally, I think they are much more valuable than the people who say, "I love KW, so it must be a good move."

I'm working hard on becoming a blind homer who loves every move Kenny makes. I don't think I'm there yet.

I'll try to make this clear yet again. In 2006, we had Garcia in the rotation and BMac as the long reliever/#6 starter. In 2007, we'll have BMac in the rotation and Haeger/Floyd/Tracey as the long reliever/#6 starter. Which is better: Garcia+BMac or BMac+?????. So the trade did not help in 2007. And we don't know how or if the saved $10M is going to spent.

How silly. I loved the Thome trade. How about that? I don't blindly criticize anything. When I criticize, I give chapter and verse on what I didn't like about it. That's not blind. That's actually thinking, not just rooting. It is very easy for a fan to convince himself that what his team did was actually good. It took many Sox fans about 6-8 hours to convince themselves. I'm actually trying to look at this rationally and objectively. If I had told you guys a couple of days ago that KW was considering trading Garcia for Floyd and Gio, you would have said: 1. Of course he isn't seriously considering that, because 2. That trade would suck, because 3. We can get a lot more for Garcia. Now that it has happened, you are working hard to find the upside and are focusing on only that.

YASNY, when is the last time you were critical of a Sox move at the time it was made? Ever?

I don't think anyone has said that BMac will be bad in 2007. I think he'll have about a 4.50 ERA, like Garcia did. That is about average for a #3 SP. That's not bad. Frankly that is a lot to expect of a young pitcher in his first full season. Yes, I realize that the future is important. I just think you shouldn't trade for the future at the expense of the present when you are going to be contending for a division title in the present.

I never said McCarthy shouldn't start. I never said Garcia shouldn't be traded. But KW could and should have gotten more for him in this market. And KW should have gotten something in that trade that helped the major league club improve. He could have at least filled a need on the major league club somewhere. Yes, there is much more left in the offseason. But right now this trade isn't good. It is only defensible if KW later does something to spin those prospects into something really good or if he spends that money on a good upgrade. We'll see. I don't have blind faith in KW.