Dick Allen

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 4, 2007 -> 12:10 PM) The funny thing is, Tampa doesn't have a whole lot to trade us. Dukes is too much of a character issue, Baldelli is hurt too much, and they're not going to trade Upton or Young now. The only guy is Crawford, but that would make no sense at all. I can't see them trading Longoria or Brignac. I think Kenny wants Al Reyes.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 10:03 PM) and you can tell the future because you know exactly what he's going to end up with in 2007. He could be .500, but that might have more to do with the White Sox being a 90 loss team. Or he could blow up. Fact of the matter is, through 107 innings, he has a 3.70 ERA and a 1.08 WHIP. That is good. No, but just like you do occassionally, I like to speculate, which I guess isn't a crime or no one would be talking about trades or anything else. I look at past history, and thats what it tells me. Vazquez is going well right now,no doubt. History says it probably won't last. I hope it does, but history suggested Pods would get hurt. History suggested Erstad would get hurt. History suggests Bukvich will probably not be any good. If you don't like my opinion, there's always the ignore feature.

History is on the White Sox side for a semi decent second half. I read where the 1999 Marlins are the only team to finish below .500 2 years after winning a WS. Some finished below the very next season, but snapped back the next year.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 09:46 PM) yep... He's got great stuff. Too bad he can't get it over the plate. He'd fit in with a lot of KW's acquisitions.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 09:33 PM) Just think Dick Allen, Tonight's 9 inning, one run performance by Javy could be turned into like 8 or 9 saves!!!!!!! Damn, another "average" start tonight by Javy. Time for someone to take the ball from him. I'm glad he pitched well. I guess reality is something Javy fans just want to avoid. He pitches several gems every year, but in the end its right around .500 with a mediocre ERA.

I loooooooooooooooove when the worst hitter in baseball is leading off for the White Sox.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 06:53 PM) HAAA This chick interviewing Owens: "You probably didn't expect both Erstad and Podsednik to land on the DL at the same time...' bwahaha They are closing up shop in Vegas. The casinos took a pounding on that one.

MacDougal is due to get a shot at pissing the game away tonight. I'll go with him. And/or Thornton.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 06:32 PM) Relevancy has to start somewhere, doesnt it? Yes but it could be very misleading. Take all the hate with Contreras. Take away his first and last start. Say they are not relevant and his ERA is 3.97. Not bad. As bad as Contreras has been this season, his ERA is almost identical to Vazquez's last season, and a lot of people say Vazquez is paid perfectly. He makes more than Contreras, so Jose must be a bargain even when he's bad.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 06:20 PM) As long as you agree that has little to do with Javy. Too bad that Javy's rock-solid first half this year is also getting dismissed by much of Soxtalk as "irrelevant" because the offense and bullpen aren't pulling their weight. Well I hope he pitches a gem tonight. The less he has to rely on the BP the better.

QUOTE(chisox2334 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:30 PM) in other news reifert and cowley are now alright with each other Good News! Joe Cowley of the Sun-Times and I made up before the game today and he evened promised to consider taking part in Blog Night (I know I need to pick a date). I think Cowley's dream job is JR's cabana boy, and he was just jealous. Reifert does have a pretty sweet gig, and is a Hawkeye.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:59 PM) And I never said that what Contreras did was "irrelevant." LOL, I don't know where in the hell you're getting that from. What IS irrelevant is your comparison of their contracts. And for the record, I was all for KW giving Jose that extension and still don't regret his decision. But I do think that he needs to shop him ASAP. And speaking of "irrelevant," why are you comparing McCarthy's ERA over 84 2/3 IP out of the bullpen last year to Vazquez's ERA over 202 2/3 IP? Perhaps a more "relevant" stat would be comparing Vazquez's ERA right now to McCarthy's wretched 6.17 ERA. Oh, but that wouldn't jive with your "Javy sucks" argument, right? :oldrolleyes Isn't terribly relevant is just about the same. I can cherry pick stats with McCarthy and what I said was if McCarthy was in the rotation and Vazquez not in 2006, the White Sox still would have finished in 3rd place. Do you not agree? If anything wasn't terribly relevant in 2006 it was Javy Vazquez's August and September. I would say Garcia's rise from the dead at the end of the year, but that was relevant as it got someone to take his contract and give something back that might be useful some day. QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 06:02 PM) Of course not. Which is why I brought up August and how Buehrle, Contreras, and Garcia all tanked while Vazquez was good (though Buehrle was better than I recalled). Teams have made up 7.5 game deficits in 2 months before, and the Sox very well could have if Contreras and Garcia hadn't put up a combined ERA of around 6.50 in August; that's essentially an automatic loss 2 times throughout the rotation. Of course, Garcia was 3-2 and Vazquez only 2-2, so the 2 and a half run difference in ERA is meaningless and that's why Garcia's a winning pitcher and Vazquez is a losing pitcher. :rolly And when Javy Vazquez goes 8 innings, gives up 1 run, and gets the loss, you're goddamn right it's everyone else's fault he didn't win. Of course, I figured everyone knew he was terrible during that time, and I didn't feel the need to mention it. His ERA got to where it was somehow. The fact of the matter is, over almost the entire past year - 170+ innings or so - his ERA is right at 3.90; I find that more relevant than what he did in June and July of last year. He's had 2 games this year where he went 7 innings, gave up 1 run and didn't get the win. On the other hand he's had 3 games where he's gone less than 7 innings and gave up 5 runs and he didn't get the loss. He had 1 game last year where he lost 1-0. He also had a game where he gave up 9 runs in 6 innings and didn't get the loss. Cherry pick all you want. Why do you begin relevancy when he's going good?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:29 PM) (1) McCarthy sucked last year and is currently sucking big-time this year. He would not have been an adequate #5 starter. (2) Even last season, Vazquez's mediocre ERA was still in the top 30 of AL starters. That's not bad for a #4 or even a low-tier #3 pitcher, especially with his strikeout numbers. This season, he could be a legitimate #2 on most teams. (3) Vazquez's contract is perfectly legitimate for a veteran with his numbers, skill set, and durability. It stabilizes the middle of a Sox rotation that may be losing its two best pitchers by the end of next year and has nothing coming up through its farm system. (4) Contreras is rapidly approaching the end of his career, so what he did a year ago isn't terribly relevant. He's had injury problems and has lost about 4-5 mph off of his fastball in the past 1-1.5 years. Vazquez is the much, much better option from here on out and deserves more money. So where Contreras was at the time he signed the extension, in the middle of winning 17 decisions, leading the team to a world championship is irrelavant? You say this right after you make a point of saying Vazquez's contract is perfectly legitimate. Be consistent. McCarthy sucked last year, but guess what, his ERA was lower than Vazquez's, which you made sure to point out with in the top 30 of AL starters. QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:43 PM) Of course you wouldn't get your facts straight. Vazquez's ERA from August 1st on last year was 3.86, while Garcia, Buehrle, and Contreras were all putting up garbage numbers. Beyond that, the Sox were officially eliminated somewhere around September 23rd and 24th; Vazquez's worst two starts from August 1st on came on September 26th and October 1st, after the Sox had been eliminated. Vazquez was one of the starters trying to bring the team back together, but he was given about 3 runs of support per game down the stretch; afterall, there's not much you can do when you're giving up 1 run over 8 innings and getting shutout by Kason Gabbard. And Contreras has shown in the past that he can be a #1 on a championship team; it's too bad for the White Sox that he'll never show that ability again. He'd been on the DL with blister problems. Officially eliminated and meaningless games don't end on the same day. What about his first half? There's a reason his career record is what it is. Its always everyone else's fault Javy doesn't get the win. Nice of you to leave out his June and July last year when he was 3-3 with an ERA over 7.00 for the 2 months.(As long as we're cherry picking stats)

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:00 PM) I haven't seen Buehrle take the field with a different uniform on yet, and if you listen to what he thinks, he's still going to be with the team come the weekend. I don't see it as an impossibility that Buehrle's gone. Keeping Garland is going to cost right around 6 or 7 years, and roughly anywhere from $15-17 million a year. Do you think the Sox have ever even considered the thought of giving Garland 5 years, let alone 6 or 7? Garland will be gone because the Sox are never going to give out a 6 or 7 year deal to a pitcher, and that's the right move. Vazquez has nothing to do with him. It's funny how you fail to mention Contreras and his old ass body making $10 mill a year. Vazquez means either Buehrle or Garland is gone, but Contreras has no effect on them. Is that it, or are you just throwing this on Vazquez because you don't like him? Contreras was part of a world championship team. In fact, a huge reason why the White Sox won. He was good enough to be the White Sox opening day pitcher this season, and had a stretch of 5 or 6 starts where his ERA was in the low 2s after the opening day debacle. If Vazquez did that, all his backers would point to that as to why he should be on the White Sox until he's Contreras' age. Acquiring Vazquez was KW getting another toy for winning it all. He wasn't needed. McCarthy could have been in the rotation last year and the White Sox would have easily finished in 3rd place. Vazquez was pretty bad until he turned it on when the games really didn't matter. For that he gets an extension, and can't be traded to west coast teams. He will be getting paid more than Contreras, who has shown in the past that he can assume the #1 slot on a championship team. Even Vazquez's most ardent admirers point out how publications rate him a better than average #4. Besides, there is one more year left of obligation to Vazquez than there is to Contreras. At least Contreras was signed after he helped the team win and was dominant. When Contreras was signed, did you comment in the thread? It would be interesting to see if you liked the signing.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 02:25 PM) Fixed. Yeah, spending $10 million dollars on one guy to pitch 75 innings is definitely the way to go. Like I said, pure brilliance. Minaya, and Cashman are idiots. The Angels are a joke. Did you see what they spend on the bullpen? Laughable. They have virtually the identical payroll of the White Sox and spend almost $20 million on the bullpen. Someday they will see that guys like Bukvich, Sisco, Aaardsma, MacDougal, Thornton, you know, guys that have pretty much sucked most of their careers with bad teams, but who have hit 97 on the radar guns, is the way to build a solid dependable bullpen. K-Rod is eventually going to cost those fools $10 million a year. Hah. They are stuck. QUOTE(BobDylan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 04:41 PM) I won't completely disagree. But Bobby Jenks is much more of a pitcher than Billy Koch is. That would be like me telling you I'm better looking than my avatar.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) I can't wait until Vazquez walks off the field in late September with a respectable 4.30 or so ERA this year and shuts up a lot of people here. I don't know how or why it would shut anyone up if the Sox finish in 3rd or 4th place. His being around and signed probably means either Buerhle or Garland, guys that are better than him will be gone, if not both, and means Chris Young isn't in CF. I'm pretty sure KW had a little better than a 4.30 ERA in mind when he traded for him.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) Oh, right, he's put up ERAs marginally below the league average, making ERA+s of 92, 99 and 96. And all the while, he's averaged 205 innings per season. Still better than the average #4 starter. I didn't say that, but if you can't read, I can't help ya there. I said: "And according to this article per The Hardball Times, Vazquez "bad years" still rate above average for a fourth starter." Nothing more, nothing less. No, putting a guy who currently has a 3.95 ERA in ~100 innings is a brilliant idea! Even better, let's pay $10 million dollars for our closer! That's an awesome idea! Let's turn the guy who, since last August, has put up a ~3.90 ERA in ~170 innings, into a closer! If only everyone could share your brain, DA... When 2007 is all said and done, Vazquez's numbers will be their usual mediocre selves. You're right spending money on the bullpen is stupid, You can have Sisco and Aardsma and Bukvich and Day for cheap, that's the way to go. I just said the guy would be a good closer IMO, if the Sox decided to trade Jenks and had no other options.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 01:32 PM) Yep, it's all about that W/L percentage, right Hawk? Give me a f***ing break. Even in Vazquez' "bad" years -- the ones in which his ERA is 4.50-4.90 -- he still gives you 200+ innings. And according to this article per The Hardball Times, Vazquez "bad years" still rate above average for a fourth starter. And if he continues doing what he's done this year? He's better than the average #2 starter. Turning Vazquez into a closer would be stupid. If ERA is important, he has yet to finish a season with an ERA below league average since leaving Montreal. He's a stud, the Hardball Times says so. Put me on ignore, I have more stupid ideas.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 01:00 PM) I'd hardly call Vazquez a mediocre starter... He does have the best stuff on the staff. Maybe you should look at 10 years of results. Nah. Its what he looks like warming up in the bullpen that counts.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 01:02 PM) The fact that it is season holders is exactly what I am talking about. People are buying tickets, seasons particularly. They ate through a pretty substantial waiting list after a 90 win season. If this team finishes with 70-75 wins, I'm not sure how many of those people in rows in the double figures in the upper deck are going to want to re-up for another 81 games. I think the season ticketbase is a house of cards, and one big reason why the White Sox want to win as many games as possible the rest of this season. I'd rather they pick up some young players and try to make a big splash with free agents, but I don't think thats going to happen.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 12:27 PM) Well, keep in mind that two things were driving last night's attendance: 1) pre-sold season tickets; and 2) the possibility of it being Mark's final start on the southside. Don't forget one of the few half price Mondays.

QUOTE(KevHead0881 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 10:24 AM) I know it wasn't exactly close, but didn't we "try" to sign ARod before the Rangers blew everybody out of the water in 2001? They were never permitted to make an offer. JR and KW wanted to talk to ARod without Boras present. This didn't happen. KW would love to have ARod on the White Sox. I think he wants him more than Buerhle, but may be coming to the conclusion that it isn't going to happen so he might as well keep Buerhle.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 09:38 AM) 1 year and 1 mill per year is nothing by today's standards. 5/75 is still a fair deal for both sides. $19 million in guaranteed money is still a lot. Considering JR and his buddies bought the White Sox and Comiskey Park, and land around it less than 30 years ago for about $20 million it may put things into perspective. If Buerhle wants to set generations of Buerhles up for life or maybe he has other aspirations 20 or 30 years from now, a few million can become an awful lot in that time span.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 12:39 AM) I have nothing against Jenks, but that 93 mph straight as an arrow fastball doesn't scare a lot of hitters. Unless he hits his spots perfectly, or close to, what happened tonight will happen a lot more. With that being said, I have been impressed with Jenks command this season and really surprised he has done this well. And if anyone said put Vazquez in as the closer, lmao, that is one of the worst ideas I have heard in a while. No offense, but that is horrible. Oh god, lol, yeah, lets pay a closer, who is a much better starter, 10-something million a year! If the Sox had someone from the minors making minimum taking his spot in the rotation, what difference would it be having someone making minimum starting and someone making $11.5 million closing or vice versa? Laugh all you want, Dennis Eckersley was a good starter until he became a mediocre one and look what happened to him. Vazquez was considered a good starter, have you seen the scouts' quotes on him? They think he's become mediocre. I think he would be great if he was programmed to go 1 inning. He throws too many types of pitches. Closers don't do that. Plus Vazquez is usually pretty good the first time through the order.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:00 PM) Vazquez a closer. He has more value as a starter. The I dont know, someone will be available is bulls***. Jenks is cheap, dirt freaking cheap. He is under control for a long time. So the risk is minimal. Who is this mysterious golden arm that will come in here, and be our closer. Mind you for dirt cheap because rebuilding teams dont spend a ton of money on their closer. After this year of crap in the pen, people should be looking to keep what is good in our pen, and jettison what is bad. Yet it seems that we want to get rid of our good closer, because of bad memories of past players. I don't know where this board gets it, but there isn't a chance in hell KW goes into a total rebuilding mode this offseason. Not with Konerko, Thome, Vazquez, Contreras, Garland and/or Buerhle on the roster. You want me to give you a name, how could I? I don't talk to GMs. What's BS is thinking Bobby Jenks is a lock to be good for a long time. I agree with you, he's one of the few guys in the bullpen that deserves a major league check. I stated that above. I also stated I wouldn't just trade him to get rid of him. It would depend on what I got back. And with his declining velocity and human being's natural tendency to gain weight as they get older, and the fact that there is a screw in his right elbow, I don't think the return on him is what anyone would be looking for. Vazquez is a mediocre starter IMO. I think he would be a great closer and I'm one of his biggest critics. But I realize it won't happen, as I have already stated. Let the season end, and let me see who's available, and I'll give you a couple of names.