Dick Allen

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:29 PM) (1) McCarthy sucked last year and is currently sucking big-time this year. He would not have been an adequate #5 starter. (2) Even last season, Vazquez's mediocre ERA was still in the top 30 of AL starters. That's not bad for a #4 or even a low-tier #3 pitcher, especially with his strikeout numbers. This season, he could be a legitimate #2 on most teams. (3) Vazquez's contract is perfectly legitimate for a veteran with his numbers, skill set, and durability. It stabilizes the middle of a Sox rotation that may be losing its two best pitchers by the end of next year and has nothing coming up through its farm system. (4) Contreras is rapidly approaching the end of his career, so what he did a year ago isn't terribly relevant. He's had injury problems and has lost about 4-5 mph off of his fastball in the past 1-1.5 years. Vazquez is the much, much better option from here on out and deserves more money. So where Contreras was at the time he signed the extension, in the middle of winning 17 decisions, leading the team to a world championship is irrelavant? You say this right after you make a point of saying Vazquez's contract is perfectly legitimate. Be consistent. McCarthy sucked last year, but guess what, his ERA was lower than Vazquez's, which you made sure to point out with in the top 30 of AL starters. QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:43 PM) Of course you wouldn't get your facts straight. Vazquez's ERA from August 1st on last year was 3.86, while Garcia, Buehrle, and Contreras were all putting up garbage numbers. Beyond that, the Sox were officially eliminated somewhere around September 23rd and 24th; Vazquez's worst two starts from August 1st on came on September 26th and October 1st, after the Sox had been eliminated. Vazquez was one of the starters trying to bring the team back together, but he was given about 3 runs of support per game down the stretch; afterall, there's not much you can do when you're giving up 1 run over 8 innings and getting shutout by Kason Gabbard. And Contreras has shown in the past that he can be a #1 on a championship team; it's too bad for the White Sox that he'll never show that ability again. He'd been on the DL with blister problems. Officially eliminated and meaningless games don't end on the same day. What about his first half? There's a reason his career record is what it is. Its always everyone else's fault Javy doesn't get the win. Nice of you to leave out his June and July last year when he was 3-3 with an ERA over 7.00 for the 2 months.(As long as we're cherry picking stats)

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 05:00 PM) I haven't seen Buehrle take the field with a different uniform on yet, and if you listen to what he thinks, he's still going to be with the team come the weekend. I don't see it as an impossibility that Buehrle's gone. Keeping Garland is going to cost right around 6 or 7 years, and roughly anywhere from $15-17 million a year. Do you think the Sox have ever even considered the thought of giving Garland 5 years, let alone 6 or 7? Garland will be gone because the Sox are never going to give out a 6 or 7 year deal to a pitcher, and that's the right move. Vazquez has nothing to do with him. It's funny how you fail to mention Contreras and his old ass body making $10 mill a year. Vazquez means either Buehrle or Garland is gone, but Contreras has no effect on them. Is that it, or are you just throwing this on Vazquez because you don't like him? Contreras was part of a world championship team. In fact, a huge reason why the White Sox won. He was good enough to be the White Sox opening day pitcher this season, and had a stretch of 5 or 6 starts where his ERA was in the low 2s after the opening day debacle. If Vazquez did that, all his backers would point to that as to why he should be on the White Sox until he's Contreras' age. Acquiring Vazquez was KW getting another toy for winning it all. He wasn't needed. McCarthy could have been in the rotation last year and the White Sox would have easily finished in 3rd place. Vazquez was pretty bad until he turned it on when the games really didn't matter. For that he gets an extension, and can't be traded to west coast teams. He will be getting paid more than Contreras, who has shown in the past that he can assume the #1 slot on a championship team. Even Vazquez's most ardent admirers point out how publications rate him a better than average #4. Besides, there is one more year left of obligation to Vazquez than there is to Contreras. At least Contreras was signed after he helped the team win and was dominant. When Contreras was signed, did you comment in the thread? It would be interesting to see if you liked the signing.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 02:25 PM) Fixed. Yeah, spending $10 million dollars on one guy to pitch 75 innings is definitely the way to go. Like I said, pure brilliance. Minaya, and Cashman are idiots. The Angels are a joke. Did you see what they spend on the bullpen? Laughable. They have virtually the identical payroll of the White Sox and spend almost $20 million on the bullpen. Someday they will see that guys like Bukvich, Sisco, Aaardsma, MacDougal, Thornton, you know, guys that have pretty much sucked most of their careers with bad teams, but who have hit 97 on the radar guns, is the way to build a solid dependable bullpen. K-Rod is eventually going to cost those fools $10 million a year. Hah. They are stuck. QUOTE(BobDylan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 04:41 PM) I won't completely disagree. But Bobby Jenks is much more of a pitcher than Billy Koch is. That would be like me telling you I'm better looking than my avatar.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) I can't wait until Vazquez walks off the field in late September with a respectable 4.30 or so ERA this year and shuts up a lot of people here. I don't know how or why it would shut anyone up if the Sox finish in 3rd or 4th place. His being around and signed probably means either Buerhle or Garland, guys that are better than him will be gone, if not both, and means Chris Young isn't in CF. I'm pretty sure KW had a little better than a 4.30 ERA in mind when he traded for him.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) Oh, right, he's put up ERAs marginally below the league average, making ERA+s of 92, 99 and 96. And all the while, he's averaged 205 innings per season. Still better than the average #4 starter. I didn't say that, but if you can't read, I can't help ya there. I said: "And according to this article per The Hardball Times, Vazquez "bad years" still rate above average for a fourth starter." Nothing more, nothing less. No, putting a guy who currently has a 3.95 ERA in ~100 innings is a brilliant idea! Even better, let's pay $10 million dollars for our closer! That's an awesome idea! Let's turn the guy who, since last August, has put up a ~3.90 ERA in ~170 innings, into a closer! If only everyone could share your brain, DA... When 2007 is all said and done, Vazquez's numbers will be their usual mediocre selves. You're right spending money on the bullpen is stupid, You can have Sisco and Aardsma and Bukvich and Day for cheap, that's the way to go. I just said the guy would be a good closer IMO, if the Sox decided to trade Jenks and had no other options.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 01:32 PM) Yep, it's all about that W/L percentage, right Hawk? Give me a f***ing break. Even in Vazquez' "bad" years -- the ones in which his ERA is 4.50-4.90 -- he still gives you 200+ innings. And according to this article per The Hardball Times, Vazquez "bad years" still rate above average for a fourth starter. And if he continues doing what he's done this year? He's better than the average #2 starter. Turning Vazquez into a closer would be stupid. If ERA is important, he has yet to finish a season with an ERA below league average since leaving Montreal. He's a stud, the Hardball Times says so. Put me on ignore, I have more stupid ideas.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 01:00 PM) I'd hardly call Vazquez a mediocre starter... He does have the best stuff on the staff. Maybe you should look at 10 years of results. Nah. Its what he looks like warming up in the bullpen that counts.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 01:02 PM) The fact that it is season holders is exactly what I am talking about. People are buying tickets, seasons particularly. They ate through a pretty substantial waiting list after a 90 win season. If this team finishes with 70-75 wins, I'm not sure how many of those people in rows in the double figures in the upper deck are going to want to re-up for another 81 games. I think the season ticketbase is a house of cards, and one big reason why the White Sox want to win as many games as possible the rest of this season. I'd rather they pick up some young players and try to make a big splash with free agents, but I don't think thats going to happen.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 12:27 PM) Well, keep in mind that two things were driving last night's attendance: 1) pre-sold season tickets; and 2) the possibility of it being Mark's final start on the southside. Don't forget one of the few half price Mondays.

QUOTE(KevHead0881 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 10:24 AM) I know it wasn't exactly close, but didn't we "try" to sign ARod before the Rangers blew everybody out of the water in 2001? They were never permitted to make an offer. JR and KW wanted to talk to ARod without Boras present. This didn't happen. KW would love to have ARod on the White Sox. I think he wants him more than Buerhle, but may be coming to the conclusion that it isn't going to happen so he might as well keep Buerhle.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 09:38 AM) 1 year and 1 mill per year is nothing by today's standards. 5/75 is still a fair deal for both sides. $19 million in guaranteed money is still a lot. Considering JR and his buddies bought the White Sox and Comiskey Park, and land around it less than 30 years ago for about $20 million it may put things into perspective. If Buerhle wants to set generations of Buerhles up for life or maybe he has other aspirations 20 or 30 years from now, a few million can become an awful lot in that time span.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 12:39 AM) I have nothing against Jenks, but that 93 mph straight as an arrow fastball doesn't scare a lot of hitters. Unless he hits his spots perfectly, or close to, what happened tonight will happen a lot more. With that being said, I have been impressed with Jenks command this season and really surprised he has done this well. And if anyone said put Vazquez in as the closer, lmao, that is one of the worst ideas I have heard in a while. No offense, but that is horrible. Oh god, lol, yeah, lets pay a closer, who is a much better starter, 10-something million a year! If the Sox had someone from the minors making minimum taking his spot in the rotation, what difference would it be having someone making minimum starting and someone making $11.5 million closing or vice versa? Laugh all you want, Dennis Eckersley was a good starter until he became a mediocre one and look what happened to him. Vazquez was considered a good starter, have you seen the scouts' quotes on him? They think he's become mediocre. I think he would be great if he was programmed to go 1 inning. He throws too many types of pitches. Closers don't do that. Plus Vazquez is usually pretty good the first time through the order.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:00 PM) Vazquez a closer. He has more value as a starter. The I dont know, someone will be available is bulls***. Jenks is cheap, dirt freaking cheap. He is under control for a long time. So the risk is minimal. Who is this mysterious golden arm that will come in here, and be our closer. Mind you for dirt cheap because rebuilding teams dont spend a ton of money on their closer. After this year of crap in the pen, people should be looking to keep what is good in our pen, and jettison what is bad. Yet it seems that we want to get rid of our good closer, because of bad memories of past players. I don't know where this board gets it, but there isn't a chance in hell KW goes into a total rebuilding mode this offseason. Not with Konerko, Thome, Vazquez, Contreras, Garland and/or Buerhle on the roster. You want me to give you a name, how could I? I don't talk to GMs. What's BS is thinking Bobby Jenks is a lock to be good for a long time. I agree with you, he's one of the few guys in the bullpen that deserves a major league check. I stated that above. I also stated I wouldn't just trade him to get rid of him. It would depend on what I got back. And with his declining velocity and human being's natural tendency to gain weight as they get older, and the fact that there is a screw in his right elbow, I don't think the return on him is what anyone would be looking for. Vazquez is a mediocre starter IMO. I think he would be a great closer and I'm one of his biggest critics. But I realize it won't happen, as I have already stated. Let the season end, and let me see who's available, and I'll give you a couple of names.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 10:46 PM) Who is going to close the games next year. Give me a name. Just saying, it needs to be blown up. Sure thats easy. Who is his replacement. I don't know. Someone will be available. KW should have some starters to dangle around. As I said, I would need to know the return before dealing Jenks, who still is effective, but a guy who they run ads about boasting about his ability to throw a ball really hard. I'm very concerned. He reminds me of Bob James. They both threw very hard, both had some weight problems, and James went from great to horrible very quickly. I'd even think about making Vazquez a closer although I'm sure KW wouldn't consider it considering his salary. I'd think he could be excellent going 1 inning a night and cutting down on the number of different pitches he throws.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 10:35 PM) Well praytell, who should we put in if we get rid of Bobby. Trading him sure, teams would jump at it. But if you get frustrated with him, wait till his replacement toes with rubber. As I said above, I would wait until the offseason to trade him, or the Sox could lose 100 games the way the rest of the bullpen performs. The current bullpen is horrible. It needs to be blown up. I thought last year was bad. Considering Jenks has 20 less strikeouts in 5 2/3 less innings than his rookie year though, you would have to admit his stuff isn't as intimidating, and not on the curve you would find ideal.

QUOTE(max power @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 10:30 PM) It wasn't even like he got beat up out there either. A lucky fisted double and a high chopper single cost him. Sometimes luck isn't on your side. These things probably don't happen if he's got his good gas.

I'd trade him, but not until the offseason. He is one of only 2 or 3 guys in the bullpen that actually should be getting a major league check. As much as I know its useless to people who know better, its much better for the Sox to win 80-84 games this season than 70-75. The season tickebase is a house of cards IMO. A 90 win season and the so-called season ticket waiting list is long gone. There will be a lot of cancellations this year if no playoffs. But a team thats well below .500 could mean box office disaster. This offseason, if KW can acquire someone who can close or make someone a closer, I'm all for trading him, depending of course on the return. FWIW save percentage is a little overrated. Jenks probably leads the league in coming in with a 3 run lead. Shingo was 8 for 9 in saves when he lost his job.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:58 PM) totally especially since hes been one of the best closers in the league this season. But yeah, good point He has a lot of saves, but he hasn't been as dominating. His second half of 2006 wasn't very good. I hope we aren't seeing the beginning of a rerun. He never would have become the folk hero he became if he was throwing 93 in 2005.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:56 PM) The infielder that plays left misplays a ball he should of caught that. Listening to Hawk and DJ gush about him, you think everyone strives to be like him and Grinerstad.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:56 PM) Well in the last two off seasons, he has been quoted about getting in shape, and doing some weight lifting. If he is doing anything up top, benching or such he needs to cut it. You can really mess up your velocity by doing heavy lifting. Shouldn't the team be monitoring his every move? What ever happened to Allen Thomas?

QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:54 PM) I love his current pitch speed just as much as I love your avatar. Paris told me its hot

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:54 PM) are we blowing the lead? i don't have it on tv here I'll give you a hint. Ozzie went to the bullpen.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2007 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:53 PM) I have to go back a while to remember a Sox bullpen this pathetic. I can't remember one ever.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:52 PM) It's sad to see Jenks turn into a slider/curve pitcher now. If you go back and watch the 2005 DVD, it's a completely different pitcher. The confrontation with Bagwell in the WS was epic. He was just throwing gas.

QUOTE(Linnwood @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 09:51 PM) Awesome job Bobby. Does anyone think Bobby doesn't miss the 98-100 mph gas?