Dick Allen

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 11:03 PM) I wasn't claiming you personally praised Shapiro for the bullpen he assembled. I'm pointing out to you that Cleveland's bullpen sucks at the moment, and they have historically sucked, and yet, the Indians are in first place and I doubt there are too many people calling for his head on the Indians' boards. On some level the players have to produce, and ours aren't. And when they don't, the best answer isn't simply to criticize the GM or expect him to be fired. When you have had the lead in games as much as the White Sox have, and the bullpen gives them away, the lack of improvement from a weakness the previous season becomes even more magnified. The team may not be hitting, but there are so many games lost where if the bullpen was half as good as what the GM said, the Sox would have won. Shapiro I am sure understood his bullpen was a weakness. KW was preaching his was a strength. Its a big difference. If he really expected this particular group to be lights out, his judgement has to be questioned. Of course we don't know if he really truely believed that.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:52 PM) I suppose we should have signed Joe Borowski and Roberto Hernandez instead. And yet, with the Indians terrible bullpen, they are a first place ballclub. I find it extremely ludicrous to crucify KW about the way this team is performing but praise the job Shapiro has done in Cleveland, considering your barometer is bullpen assemblage. Do a search and see if you can find me praising Shapiro about his bullpen. He doesn't have $100 million to spend on the roster though. The funny thing is the board was laughing about the Indians bullpen while posting how dominant the White Sox is, what are their stats? It appears you are one of those guys who thinks KW can do no wrong. That's fine. I disagree with you, and think winning the title has gone to his head.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:42 PM) I'm not buying this bs that Aardsma can't handle pressure. The guy was a top closer in college. He looked awfully good at the beginning of this year in quite a few pressure situations. He obviously is experiencing difficulties right now, but I'm not giving up on the guy yet. Sisco was an obvious project and we all damned well knew that coming in. Macdougal is a complete mystery. Massett has performed extremely inconsistently- but that's what young kids do when they come up- they are inconsistent. Our bullpen problems are being exacerbated right now because the offense isn't performing. Look at Cleveland's bullpen- they have the same number of bullpen guys as us worth a damn- two. But their offense is clicking on all cylinders and so it isn't as big of a deal as ours is at the moment. The difference between things going right personnel-wise and going wrong is incredibly more slight than one would think. That difference is exaggerated exponentially when your personnel isn't performing. That's not Kenny's fault. That the fault of the players. That's 3 guys in the bullpen that you just said we all could of and should have anticipated having problems. And another who has had control and injury problems in the past. That's fine for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays or the KC Royals, but its not a good thing if you are in the business of trying to win a championship. You don't have to buy Aaardsma not being able to handle pressure, but his pitching coach is questioning it. There are a lot of guys who were great in college but were awful professionals, even in lower levels.

I wouldn't call Gio up to be in the bullpen. Call him up in September and let him start a few games that don't matter to let him get his feet wet. You put him in the bullpen now and you will be seeing a lot of walks.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:32 PM) I agree. You can fault WIlliams for the current outcome, but the way he assembled the bullpen was defensible. The back-end of Jenks, Thornton, and MacDougal should have been pretty good. The key really is MacDougal, who if he was performing like he did in 2005 and 2006 (3.30 ERA those 2 years) would be a very good setup man. It's hard to claim Kenny should have foreseen him pitching far worse than he ever has before in the bigs. Williams gambled on Aardsma, Sisco, and Masset and lost on all of them. Its not far worse. He's been awful with KC before and he's always a good bet to wind up on the DL. Thornton was a bust until last season. He wasn't going to make Seattle's roster in 2006. If you go with the theory that relievers are good then bad, how can you rely on him in 2007?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:22 PM) The problem is what constitutes a "strong" bullpen changes from year to year. Ask the Cubs about that one. You can try and sign some of the few guys that have been able to remain effective out of the bullpen on a somewhat consistent basis. But those guys are few and far between and they often end up closing somewhere which makes them even more ridiculously expensive. This really isn't as simple as people try to make it sound. Actually, I really don't think its that hard, especially with a rotation that is pretty much guaranteed to give you at least 6 innings every night, and a closer who isn't going to be expensive for a few years. Last year he thought he was so smart he signed every 6 year minor league free agent and had them fight for a spot in the defending champions bullpen and they all showed why they were 6 year free agents. This year he looked a radar guns and came to the conclusion that his new bullpen although vastly inexperience, especially in any game of importance, was one of the tops in the league before spring training even started. That by getting a guy with a 7.00 ERA with the Royals and a guy with a 4.00 ERA from the Cubs who both have had a lot of problems with strikes and one a lot of problems keeping the ball in the park. Even Cooper has come to the conclusion Aardsma can't handle pressure. The guy mustn't be too good if he's already been part of a package for a washed up LaTroy Hawkins and part of a package for Neal Cotts, a guy who couldn't get anyone out the last part of last season. The Angels bullpen was vastly superior to the White Sox and they spent money improving it. KW is so impressed with himself he thinks he can judge future performance based on Arizona fall league and a couple of tapes.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:10 PM) If the Sox put MacDougal on waivers, he'll get claimed in a second. He has a reasonable contract, and teams will think they can fix his mechanics. Good, because obviously Cooper can't. Why pay him for 3 years when he can't throw a strike? BTW, in 2005 KW paid Luis Vicaino and Dustin Hermanson about the same amount he's paying the entire bullpen in 2007. That's before the days of a $100 million payroll. A sea of empty green seats around August may finally get the message through his thick skull that he needs a strong bullpen to win, and picking up Royals and Cubs rejects probably won't get that done.

QUOTE(Jim Spencer @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:37 AM) If it does not rain tomorrow, I'm headed down I65 to Indy to see The Knights play the Indians. Section 117 Row C just to the right of The Knights dugout. Is there anything anybody wants me to ask BA Ask him if he has any room for Aardsma and MacDougal in his apartment.

QUOTE(zenryan @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 03:16 PM) I'm blaming 2005. If the sox didnt win the WS then we would be so upset with these losers. If they didn't win in 2005, Ozzie and KW would probably be doing something else.

Space to work DJ? They pissed away a 3 run lead.

Andy Gonzalez has been a good call-up. He's really contributed a lot.

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 03:13 PM) it's still ozzies fault, duh. everything is I'm blaming Brian Anderson.

Cintron has been better as of late.

Please bring in a pinch runner

We need a runner

BTW I was at the gym watching the game earlier so I couldn't post, but kudos to DJ for not caving in to Hawk's insistance that Overbay swung when he got hit by a pitch. If they said a White Sox player swung with the exact same play how would be b****ing about the umpiring the rest of the day.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 02:51 PM) It's amazing to me that no one has lost their job so far this year. This team is bad, and sucks in virtually every aspect possible. I bet the Yankees are going to be scared of facing Day, Prinz, and Buckvich this week. Its ego. We have a couple of guys with huge egos making roster decisions, and they have a hard time admitting they were as wrong as you can be.

QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 02:48 PM) CURRENT UP TO DATE STATS FOR THE BULLPEN THIS ROAD TRIP!!!!! 14.2 IP 24 Hits 15 Runs 15 ER 10 Walks 80 Batters Faced .343 Opponents BA .425 Opponents OBP GO BULLPEN!!! If the Sox lose today, they will be 1-6 on the roadtrip, and will have had the lead in all but 1 game. It is amazing to me the lack of action with the bullpen.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 02:47 PM) How about some predictions for this inning? - Thome vs Downs: 3-2 fastball taken for a strike....Thome starts jogging to first - Dye vs righty: gets up 3-1 in count, chases ball 4, and then pops up to center - Konerko pops up 2nd pitch, does suicide shrug. You're way off. Thome swings and misses strike 3.

Has DJ secrety become Tim McCarver? He's talking about how if Day can locate his pitches on the corners he could be effective for an inning. Wow, really?

God's doghouse is growing by the minute.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 02:32 PM) Cooper should have been fired after last year....but it sounds like Tim Raines was the scapegoat for our disasterous 2nd half last season. Looks like it was all Raines' fault. I hope the smugness is off of KW's face right now. He really has had a couple of bad offseasons in a row now. Nice play by Owens. Good seeing our minor league instructors are teaching the game properly.

If its Walker's fault the offense sucks, why wouldn't it be Cooper's fault the bullpen sucks? 2 baseball geniuses, 2 guys who know more about winning and good players than anyone else in the universe, KW and Ozzie, said the bullpen was one of the best in the game coming into this season. They have to be either at the bottom or right next to it now. Coop can't fix 'em.

QUOTE(JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 02:28 PM) didnt ozzie get tossed? He's still managing the team.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) How about: Call up Fields, Prinz, Bukvich, Vasquez Send down Aardsma, Day, Masset to be a AAA starter, DL MacDougal The papers say MacDougal has options left. Why DL him? Let him go walk AAA hitters in Charlotte.