Dick Allen

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 06:27 PM) Thats where you are thinking far too linear. We have locked ourselves into a very affordable contract with a pitcher that costs more on the open market. If he does not perform like we want him to, we have assured ourselves a very movable contract. Because he is a bargain, and because of his talent, we can deal him or keep him depending on our needs. It is a much better strategy than letting him go for nothing and spending 14-15 million over 5-6 years on a free agent just because they are one of the only ones available. THAT contract is very stationary. I don't find the contract to be a bargain. That's where I totally disagree. If Vazquez puts up another season like the last 2 1/2, there would be no team interested in him at that price. You may think its a bargain now, but will you feel that way in 2009 or 2010? I don't think so, but admittedly I have never been a fan of Vazquez.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 06:06 PM) s***, if Flash likes this deal, its even more ridiculous to me why anyone cant. Freddy is going to get 14+ in free agency, Javy in arb would have had most likely 13 or so. Even without the fact that he is capable of being a top of the rotation guy, this is just a great business deal plain and simple. Spend away in the free agent market? You are mad at adding payroll at a decent cost the next couple of years, but you want us to "spend" in the free agent market? Do you know how much money we would have to commit to get a decent veteran pitcher in this market? You are talking 5+ years at at least 13 million per year. Which is locking up every more money in the future. You have signed Mr. Mediocre to a 3 year extension, which is basically a 4 year contract. Why lock yourself into mediocrity? I thought everyone said there would be a market correction anyway? I'd rather pay someone $13 million-$15 million a year who wins, than pledge all that money to Javier Vazquez. If the White Sox can commit over $40 million the next 4 seasons to Javier Vazquez, there is no reason Dye or Buerhle or Crede or for that matter (and I'm glad he's gone) Garcia should go elsewhere.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) How does signing Vazquez for less than he'd get in arbitration mean that the White Sox have less money available? The only way to free up more money would have been to not offer Vazquez arbitration and therefore let him walk with no compensation, at which point we very well might be playing the market for a $12 million a year mediocre starting pitcher somewhere. Because A. if he sucks in 2007 you can't get rid of him. And B. If I'm reading it correctly about $23 million more has been committed to the 2009 and 2010 combined payrolls. I would have rather rolled the dice and let him play this season out. If he came up big and you had to pay him $3 million-$4 million extra in 2008 so what, at least your paying for results seen. Either that or trade him for a package of minor leaguers and spend away at the free agent market. If Gio, Danks and Floyd are as good as KW says they are, I was in the room when he said Gio and Danks are the top 2 lefthanded pitching prospects in baseball, and we all know what he says about Floyd, you don't need to spend $12 million finding a mediocre starting pitcher. Garland and Contreras would still be around.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:28 PM) Extending Vazquez really doesn't change anything these next two seasons. He'll have, what, a ~ million increase next season? If Williams is intent on resigning any of the names mentioned in your post it shouldn't matter one bit. I don't believe we'd have a chance of resigning Buehrle or Garland to deal below three years. As for Contreras, he's definitely a person I wouldn't even risk a two year extension with considering his age and possible injury concerns. It does change the amount of money available to make offers on one of the better free agent classes in a long time.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:17 PM) This organization had to weight their options. We're extending Vazquez now after a fairly mediocre season. If Williams waits until 2008, perhaps Vazquez doesn't significantly improve and we have a better idea of what to do with him. Yet, if he has a breakout season, we're paying 14-16 million in arbitration and the likelihood of extending him with a contract comparable to today is impossible. Then they could always trade him.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 04:51 PM) And that he took 3 years...and that he took a hometown discount...and that he has a history of some success...and that when he was with a team more than one whole year in a row, he was pretty good.... Buehrle had the opportunity to do the same thing and wants to check his value on an open market. Fine. go do that. Vazquez would rather pitch for the White Sox. The argument that he has to be with a team for more than one season is about as weak of excuse for his struggles as I have ever seen. He started out great with the Yankees, in fact I think he made the All Star team. But he could get anyone out the second half of 2004. He also had a couple of mediocre years in Montreal after he had been there a while.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 04:50 PM) I absolutely love this deal. Even considering Vazquez's struggles, he would have earned a substantially higher amount of money/years based on last year's statistics alone. Have we not seen what teams offer for power capable arms? Now imagine a powerful arm capable of avoiding injury and providing innings.... Honestly, how can anyone oppose this contract extension? I'll just have to assume -- without physically viewing the previous messages -- that EVERYONE realizes this is a good signing. Yes, there exists risk. Most extended contracts for pitchers do. However, even with a collection of possible SP prospects, we need stability within the rotation. More importantly, someone capable of sustaining the "ace" moniker. I'm not foolish enough to believe he'll mysteriously revert to Montreal days for several seasons. However, considering how he hasn't been in one place for two consecutive seasons since 2004, I'm looking forward to this season. Oh, and LOLLERZ at Rotoworld. So? No mention of how it's a fair deal in comparison to other pitchers? I don't know why the Sox would extend a guy now, considering they don't like to go more than 3 years with pitchers, and its cost them chances to sign good ones, who they have under control for 2 years and has not been a very mediocre pitcher for much of his career. I'd much rather take my chances on him having this breakout year a lot of people seem to think he'll have and paying him a couple more million for 2008, than signing him and taking the more likely chance that what you see is what you get through 2010. Did any of the people who think this is a great signing laugh at the Cubs when they signed Ted Lilly?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:51 PM) So, basically you have k rates being close one year, and meche hasnt yet had a good year. Couple that with meaningless records and we still got the better deal. Javy at 3 years >>>>>>>>Meche at 5 ok, so what fantasy pitcher will we sign for that spot in the rotation and for how much money? Meche's contract was ridiculous. KW would even say that. Vazquez is a 3 year extension so the Sox are stuck with him for 4. Meche usually wins a couple more games than he loses. Meche may not have the "stuff" Vazquez has, but he has at least similar results, and if he's overpaid, so is Vazquez.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:47 PM) I don't have time to do this right now, but I'm willing to bet there are at least a handful of losses where the offense put up 6+ runs of support and Javy went out and blew it for the team in the early months of the season. There were only 2 or 3 times that Vazquez pitched last season where he didn't have the lead at some point. It really makes his record even worse.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:05 PM) ugh, I dont know if I would compare Meche and Javy. their k rates were pretty comparable last season. Meche wins at a higher pct. for his career. Their ERA's if you adjust for AL are pretty close, Meche's would probably be better.

Gil Meche money for Gil Meche numbers.

mlb.tv improved the picture a bit for the deluxe package this season. I saw a sample and if you full screen it, it still looks a little underwater, but not as much. Its at least watchable. I definitely would buy it if I didn't live in the Chicago area.

Tyson Chandler really railed on Scott Skiles to an Oklahoma newpaper, saying he was an awful person etc., comments far more condemning than anything McCarthy said or even Ordonez said. Skiles was asked for a response to the comments. He said he had none. I think Ozzie should take notes.

Jenks has pronounced himself all better after some massage, stimulation, ice, poking, a bullpen session, and oh no, a towel drill.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Mar 2, 2007 -> 08:02 PM) so let me ask...how are you going to get ARod without giving up Crede? It would be possible for ARod to be a 3Bman this year and then move to SS in 2008 with Fields taking over at 3B. I just don't see how ARod would have been the SS this year for the White Sox. I agree with you. But even if Crede wasn't involved in the deal, he would be gone in another one soon after.

Its very apparent that Ozzie is going to be given the bait almost everytime he gives an interview to say something outrageous. It appears he can't help himself and will spout off. It will eventually lead to his demise, and a lot of people will be shocked. I won't.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Mar 2, 2007 -> 08:17 PM) Wha does Ozzie mean here? Throw your hands up in the air when a teammate (Mackowiak) makes a bad break on the ball? Throw a hissy fit when guys (Iguchi) make an error? Or does he want guys to 'take days off' when they play against lesser teams? Didn't Ozzie say he expected Garcia to have a big year this year because he's playing for a contract? He's advocating modeling yourself after a guy who needs a new contract for motivation. The current one isn't motivation enough.

So Ozzie, who most who even think McCarthy sucks will agree, misused him last year, says McCarthy, the rookie making the minimum may just be the one responsible for blowing the White Sox playoff chances. Yet Buerhle, who was batting practice the second half of last season, and admittedly was out of shape, bears no blame. Nor does Freddy Garcia who admitted he only gets up for big games, or Jon Garland whose ERA was over 6.00 the first 2 months, nor the guy responsible for assembling the bullpen last year, nor the guy who insisted on putting Mackowiak in CF and continued to leave Vazquez in past the fifth inning time and time again to get pounded. Don't blame any of those guys. I'm glad I saw the light. Brandon McCarthy is the reason the White Sox didn't make the playoffs and probably would have won another title. I am so happy he's gone. I'm sure Gavin Floyd will be much better. QUOTE(chisox72 @ Mar 2, 2007 -> 08:08 PM) I am sure he was just using Freddy as an example of a veteran presence and nothing more. For christ sake, this Brandon McCarthy love-fest is beyond me. I am okay with what Ozzie had to say, especially after reading Merkin's article. B-Mac was immature, and his attitude on the team based on all of the reports was also immature. Then he leaves and rips the organization in various news sources. But yeah, he did no wrong, Ozzie is the asshole and B-Mac is the saint. Afterall, he is paving his way to Cooperstown. Maybe without B-Mac around, BA can get his head out of his ass too before he gets sent packing... You would have to look long and hard to find a more immature 42 or 43 year old man than Ozzie Guillen.

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Mar 2, 2007 -> 03:03 PM) We can only go on what we know, and what we know is that almost all of them love to play for him. What we know is most claim to love to play for him. There are some that have no use for him.

QUOTE(SoxAce @ Mar 2, 2007 -> 03:02 PM) Don't you mean Tracey? Ozzie went after Garland as well last season.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Mar 2, 2007 -> 02:55 PM) If Ozzie is ripping them publicly, he must have seen things behind the scenes that would be cause for concern on both Anderson and Bmac--something that affected their playing more than just some Freddy and some smoke. Not that he should. He should keep it private. Yet vets like AJ, Buehrle, Konerko, Thome, and Dye don't seem to mind or think he's out of line. They seem more amused by Ozzie when reporters give them Ozzie quotes, than think he's out of line. That's because they are veterans and professionals, and realize, unlike their manager, that saying whatever you feel like saying, and even being blunt and telling the truth, isn't always the best way to deal with the press. Believe me, Ozzie Guillen could easily be so embarrassed if people mentioned some of the things he's done during his White Sox career, he has tons of skeletons in his closet, and they would be just being honest. You can't tell me the Sox players don't mind any of Ozzie's act.

Ozzie always has his favorites and is very inconsistent. He blamed Jenks and Uribe for being out of shape last year, but blamed Allen Thomas for Buerhle and Garcia being out of shape.

I don't see where what anything McCarthy said should be offensive. Guys that are 22 or 23 don't hang out with guys who are 30-35. Almost everytime someone leaves the Sox someone from the White Sox eventually slams that player in the press. Its really getting old. QUOTE(Rex Kicka** @ Mar 2, 2007 -> 02:40 PM) My view from afar is simply that Oz isn't a good game manager, and although he's good for providing spark to a listless ball club, once this club tastes success - he's been more than happy to let the life get sucked right out of it again. I view him as a short term success and not a long term solution. Most "experts" agree with you. They don't think his act is suited for long-term success.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 1, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) I hope the comparisons to Buehrle immediately end with velocity. That was one of the strangest comparisons ever. Cooper basically said they were sort of alike because they both were left handed but everything else was different.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Mar 1, 2007 -> 07:22 AM) Because it's spring training and you don't take a chance? That's my point. Why, if they knew about this problem to begin with, did they take a chance with the 10 pitches? I hope this is minor, but I think its awfully presumptious to think its nothing.